Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[BridgeTroll]

Below are sgareys points...

In rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others. 

[thelakelander]

Based on the documentation provided in this 33 page thread, this is how I see it:

In rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1. Middle finger - theory and un-provable - What else do you call the opening of an all-white public school in Jacksonville, five years after Brown vs Board of Education? Forrest opening as an all white school in 1959 and Brown vs Board of Education in 1954 are not theory and un-provable. Those are historical facts.

For those of you who don't know, Forrest opened in 1959. Brown v. Board of Education was a landmark United States Supreme Court case in which the Court declared state laws establishing separate public schools for black and white students unconstitutional in 1954. The decision overturned the Plessy v. Ferguson decision of 1896, which allowed state-sponsored segregation, insofar as it applied to public education. Handed down on May 17, 1954, the Warren Court's unanimous (9–0) decision stated that "separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." As a result, de jure racial segregation was ruled a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution. 

If this wasn't a middle finger to the Civil Rights push of that era, we are then suggesting that Jacksonville's leaders were not aware of the Supreme Court decision.  While they may have been racist, they were not dummies.


2. KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.

This is all white supremacy semantics.  Forrest admitted to be being a part of the Pale Faces in his testimony before the "Joint Select Committee to Inquire Into the Condition of Affairs of the Late Insurrectionary States" in 1871.  This source was introduced into this discussion by Sgarey himself (thanks...see post 452) to prove that Forrest was not a member of the Knights of the White Camelia order in Louisiana.

The report can be found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=WIl4AAAAMAAJ&q=forrest#v=onepage&q&f=false.

Pale Faces was a Reconstruction-era white supremacist fraternal order founded in January 1868 in Columbia, Tennessee, which is just up the road from the KKK's birthplace in Pulaski.

This is like going back and forth on if a sofa or couch is the correct terminology. KKK, Pale Faces, White Camelia, etc. they all had the same mission to terrorize freedman, yankees, immigrants and others that didn't fit into their clique.


3. War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted

This isn't my fight. However, I'm not aware of there being trials for war crimes either.


4. Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time

See point 2. Frederick Douglass was a progressive of his time. Forrest, on the other hand, was a racist. He was a slave trader and owner before the Civil War and a member of the supremacy group Pale Faces after it. Progressive? Look at it this way.  I'm black.  What do you think would be Forrest's reaction if I slept with one of his female family members? Something tells me the description wouldn't include "progressive" as a characteristic.

5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

We all known NBF had no direct affiliation with Jacksonville. Labeling him a "southern" hero to lump Jax in it is like saying we should name something after Malcolm X because he was a nationwide hero to a select segment of the US population and Jax is clearly a part of the same country.

[Tacachale]

Below are sgareys points...

In rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others.

Here's my take

1). As we've said repeatedly, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see this. I think anyone familiar with the time period will come to the same conclusion.

2). The historical consensus seems to be that Forrest was definitely a Klan member and probably a leader. In fact, I can't find any historian who makes the claim that he wasn't in the Klan. The only debate is over what his role was, ie, whether he was the head or "Grand Wizard." I'm not sure there's agreement on that point, but as we've seen there is extant tesitimonial from other members that he was indeed Grand Wizard. The biography by Brian Steel Wills says he was a member, but it's unclear if was really Grand Wizard (p. 336). But in his biography, Jack Hurst finds unequivocally that he was (p. 6, 287). He was definitely not the founder, as he was inducted by other members. He does appear to have left the Klan in 1869 and possibly tried - unsucessfully -  to disband it, and he publicly repudiated the worst instances of violence. However, there's really no question he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

3) We haven't spoken much about the Fort Pillow Massacre here. Sgarey's statement is false - there was no trial. There's no question as to whether a massacre took place. There is some question as to whether Forrest was responsible

4) It's silly to claim that a slave owner was not racist. In fairness, he was similar to many others of his time. I think the real issue with Forrest is that many in the community consider him particularly offensive due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

5). It's inarguable that Forrest has nothing to do with Jacksonville. I count only 6 middle and high schools in Duval that are named for someone with no local connection, 3 of which are the "middle finger" schools - Forrest, Jefferson Davis, and JEB Stuart, opened between 1959 and 1966. In other words, there's no pressing reason to keep this name if people want it changed.

[rbirds]

Sgarey123 in reply #485 argues that Forrest could not have been a klan member because the 1871 Joint Congressional Committee Report on the Condition of the Affairs in the Late Insurrectionary States which interviewed Forrest "did not find him guilty" of belonging to the Klan.

The committee, which handled Forrest's denial of membership with some skepticism discussed the possibility of his membership but then cautioned the reader that the committee was not formed to discover whether Forrest was or was not a member but rather to investigate the operation of the Klan during the brief life of the 19th century version of the Klan. The committee did not find Forrest guilty of anything because his guilt or innocence was not part of the committee's charter. Thus there would not be any charge of culpability in Klan activities because such a charge was not in the committee's purview. The job of this committee was to investigate the atrocities perpetrated by the Klan.

This reality makes sgarey123's next conclusion, which he highlights in bold and caps, irrelevant, that if Forrest was indeed a Klan member "don't you think they would have arrested them!"  Well, no, since the committee had not authority to judge Forrest's guilt or innocence there was no basis to arrest him.

So the fact that Forrest was not arrested after his testimony before the Congressional committee is not a test of whether he was indeed a member of the Klan. It neither proves nor disproves anything.

Sgarey123 then goes on to justify where these racist, terrorist groups were organized.  According to sgarey123, emphasized in bold: "It was pure chaos. It was mob rule... Most of these organizations at the time were no more than vigilante groups trying to defend their women, children and property from harm."

He suggests the Congressional committee's report justifies the forming of these groups. Actually, the report firmly establishes that the most lawless groups included the Ku Klux Klan and other affiliated groups including the Pale Faces. Witnesses testifying before the committee confidently claimed that the Pale Faces was just another name for the Klan.

The committee cites a report from the Secretary of War describing Klan operations. "The precise objects of the organization cannot be readily explained," the report says, "but seem...to be to disarm, rob, and, in many cases, murder Union men and negroes and, as occasion may offer, murder United States officers and soldiers; also to intimidate every one who knows anything of the organization, but who will not join it." (p. 19) Another Army general observed that "armed bands, styling themselves Ku-Klux, &c, have practiced barbarous cruelties upon the freemen."  (pp. 20-21) The committee report's conclusion are the opposite of what sgarey123 claims.

These descriptions go on page after page after page. As shown in the committee report, it was the reactionary white supremacists who were a source for disorder rather than the others blamed for the necessity to create the Klan and others. In many parts of the South the Klan had become the de facto law, an invisible government state officials could not control.

[Sgarey123]

Rbirds, I do not know where you came from but I certainly welcome your questions. Thank you for joining the discussion. I respect your intelligent contention and I will respond soon but it is Thanksgiving!

[AmyLynne]

Below are sgareys points...

In rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others.

Here's my take

1). As we've said repeatedly, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see this. I think anyone familiar with the time period will come to the same conclusion.

2). The historical consensus seems to be that Forrest was definitely a Klan member and probably a leader. In fact, I can't find any historian who makes the claim that he wasn't in the Klan. The only debate is over what his role was, ie, whether he was the head or "Grand Wizard." I'm not sure there's agreement on that point, but as we've seen there is extant tesitimonial from other members that he was indeed Grand Wizard. The biography by Brian Steel Wills says he was a member, but it's unclear if was really Grand Wizard (p. 336). But in his biography, Jack Hurst finds unequivocally that he was (p. 6, 287). He was definitely not the founder, as he was inducted by other members. He does appear to have left the Klan in 1869 and possibly tried - unsucessfully -  to disband it, and he publicly repudiated the worst instances of violence. However, there's really no question he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

3) We haven't spoken much about the Fort Pillow Massacre here. Sgarey's statement is false - there was no trial. There's no question as to whether a massacre took place. There is some question as to whether Forrest was responsible

4) It's silly to claim that a slave owner was not racist. In fairness, he was similar to many others of his time. I think the real issue with Forrest is that many in the community consider him particularly offensive due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

5). It's inarguable that Forrest has nothing to do with Jacksonville. I count only 6 middle and high schools in Duval that are named for someone with no local connection, 3 of which are the "middle finger" schools - Forrest, Jefferson Davis, and JEB Stuart, opened between 1959 and 1966. In other words, there's no pressing reason to keep this name if people want it changed.

Has there been a push to get those two other school names changed too?

[Sgarey123]

Below are sgareys points...

In rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others.

Here's my take

1). As we've said repeatedly, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see this. I think anyone familiar with the time period will come to the same conclusion.

2). The historical consensus seems to be that Forrest was definitely a Klan member and probably a leader. In fact, I can't find any historian who makes the claim that he wasn't in the Klan. The only debate is over what his role was, ie, whether he was the head or "Grand Wizard." I'm not sure there's agreement on that point, but as we've seen there is extant tesitimonial from other members that he was indeed Grand Wizard. The biography by Brian Steel Wills says he was a member, but it's unclear if was really Grand Wizard (p. 336). But in his biography, Jack Hurst finds unequivocally that he was (p. 6, 287). He was definitely not the founder, as he was inducted by other members. He does appear to have left the Klan in 1869 and possibly tried - unsucessfully -  to disband it, and he publicly repudiated the worst instances of violence. However, there's really no question he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

3) We haven't spoken much about the Fort Pillow Massacre here. Sgarey's statement is false - there was no trial. There's no question as to whether a massacre took place. There is some question as to whether Forrest was responsible

4) It's silly to claim that a slave owner was not racist. In fairness, he was similar to many others of his time. I think the real issue with Forrest is that many in the community consider him particularly offensive due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

5). It's inarguable that Forrest has nothing to do with Jacksonville. I count only 6 middle and high schools in Duval that are named for someone with no local connection, 3 of which are the "middle finger" schools - Forrest, Jefferson Davis, and JEB Stuart, opened between 1959 and 1966. In other words, there's no pressing reason to keep this name if people want it changed.

Has there been a push to get those two other school names changed too?

Yes they are all being renamed to make a few select people happy and the rest of us P!ssed off for eternity.

[rbirds]

Happy Thanksgiving to sgarey123 and to everyone on this discussion board. I imagine even ole' NBF celebrated Thanksgiving.

[kbhanson3]

sgarey, you are mistaken if you believe that only a "select few" want to see the name changed. And if changing a school name angers you for eternity, then you must be one incredibly passionate history buff. I sincerely hope your anger will not last. Letting go of that anger is as important for healing racial tensions as acknowledging the pain experienced by so many who are offended by the NBF name. We need both sides of the debate moving forward for progress.

IMO our society has taken on too much of a winner-loser mentality. We see it all the time in politics, particularly in DC. The mentality is my way or no way. We need to disagree, debate but then ultimately seek unity. I hope when this issue is resolved we will all find a way to bury the hatchet and move forward as a cohesive community, and not continue to fight the war for the next 150 years.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Tacachale]

Below are sgareys points...

In rebuttal to most arguing for name change:

So far the points and arguments are still as follows:

1) Middle finger - theory and un-provable
2) KKK affiliation - theory and un-provable - questioned by committee and was not arrested for affiliation.
   A- Proven NOT to be leader
   B- Proven NOT to be founder
        C- Proven to have helped Dismantle organization
3) War Criminal -  Tried and not convicted - Fact
4) Racist -  Not one - Fact - A progressive of his time
5) Has nothing to do with Jacksonville - Wrong - NBF was a Southern hero, Jacksonville is clearly part of the Confederate South.

1.  It may not be provable... but I believe this was indeed the case.

2.  I see very little proof either way.  I am relatively certain he had knowledge of, and was likely at least a member of one of many such organizations formed shortly after the war.

3.  I find no evidence that there was even a trial for war crimes.  if there was a trial there was a transcript of the testimoney.  Someone please find it and present it...

4.  He clearly WAS a racist.  Buying, selling, owning, and working slaves prior to the war proves that.

5.  While NBF had no affiliation with Jacksonville... neither do Lee, Jackson, and a few others.

Here's my take

1). As we've said repeatedly, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see this. I think anyone familiar with the time period will come to the same conclusion.

2). The historical consensus seems to be that Forrest was definitely a Klan member and probably a leader. In fact, I can't find any historian who makes the claim that he wasn't in the Klan. The only debate is over what his role was, ie, whether he was the head or "Grand Wizard." I'm not sure there's agreement on that point, but as we've seen there is extant tesitimonial from other members that he was indeed Grand Wizard. The biography by Brian Steel Wills says he was a member, but it's unclear if was really Grand Wizard (p. 336). But in his biography, Jack Hurst finds unequivocally that he was (p. 6, 287). He was definitely not the founder, as he was inducted by other members. He does appear to have left the Klan in 1869 and possibly tried - unsucessfully -  to disband it, and he publicly repudiated the worst instances of violence. However, there's really no question he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

3) We haven't spoken much about the Fort Pillow Massacre here. Sgarey's statement is false - there was no trial. There's no question as to whether a massacre took place. There is some question as to whether Forrest was responsible

4) It's silly to claim that a slave owner was not racist. In fairness, he was similar to many others of his time. I think the real issue with Forrest is that many in the community consider him particularly offensive due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

5). It's inarguable that Forrest has nothing to do with Jacksonville. I count only 6 middle and high schools in Duval that are named for someone with no local connection, 3 of which are the "middle finger" schools - Forrest, Jefferson Davis, and JEB Stuart, opened between 1959 and 1966. In other words, there's no pressing reason to keep this name if people want it changed.

Has there been a push to get those two other school names changed too?

Yes they are all being renamed to make a few select people happy and the rest of us P!ssed off for eternity.

Once again Sgarey is wrong. There has never been such an effort for any of the other schools that has gained any traction. As I said in response to #4, Forrest is seen as more offensive than the others due to the KKK connection and Fort Pillow.

[rbirds]

NBF is seen as more offensive than others for a number of reasons, including the KKK and the Fort Pillow massacre. His personality was rough, to say the least. He was quick to feel insult and just as quickly offered insult in response. Often those responses were physical. He had little patience and was seen as impulsive outside of his wartime experience. He alienated other Memphis businessmen after the war and, as I had mentioned in an earlier post, was loathed by the black population in Memphis. All the barbers in postbellum Memphis were black and he avoided frequenting the same barbershop twice in a row to avoid any plans by these barbers to cut his throat.

NBF embodied values opposite of a Confederate leader we continue to revere: Robert E. Lee. Where Lee was patient and gracious, Forrest was impatient and rude. Where Lee was learned and sophisticated, Forrest was self-educated and rustic. Where Lee represented the noblest aspirations of the Confederacy, Forrest represented the slave-owning class of grasping capitalists, reminding all observers that at the bottom of all Confederate demands was the forced labor of enslaved Africans and their offspring.

It is this stark contrast between a gracious Southern gentleman and a swaggering backwoods provincial that makes NBF such a flashpoint.

[Sgarey123]

I hesitated to respond. However I promised Rbirds that I would do so.

I do not know what is going to happen however I have a few things left to say.  The SOUTH is not anti-black. It never has been.  I quote the most famous abolitionist:

"Prejudice against color is stronger North than South"  Fredrick Douglas

Our Southern Culture is worth preservation.  We all  have the same customs after all....food....names....everything. I think the true locals still to this day feel that kindred spirit between folks of different color as long as we are local.

However this sort of thing has begun the un-rivaling of decades of loyalty. It has polarized and created distrust at a level that should NEVER have occurred. It is UNACCEPTABLE and has caused destruction in relationships that are centuries old.  You should all be ASHAMED of yourselves! 

Nathan Bedford Forrest is a good man. 

Read these links....you can not but stand in "AWe" of the guy....

Obit:
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0713.html

Here is what a guy in 2006 said about him:

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/122906/opl_7020282.shtml


In regards to his testimony....They would have totally arrested him if he was found to be in the KKK. There is no question about that....none.   If pressed I can dig up the lingo.
I truly hope that the school board and the superintendent do what is right and multicultural.  Removing his name would be a step backwards in Civil rights. It is wrong. Thank you.   

[thelakelander]

In other words, you can't question and prove the points that many have made, to be false. That's cool. It's a hard job trying to turn this guy into a saint that should be honored by all in Jacksonville, FL.

[Sgarey123]

What did you prove through this entire conversation? nothing....nothing righteous....you only showed your intense bigotry.

You may have proved that you started this tirade thinking you had grounds for this renaming but at the end we all know that the FACTS do not back up the action.  You have now LYNCHED a man from history so there is no more sympathy for a black minority.  It is clear that there is now a new minority and it is not black people.

It should be known that a common thought through the Civil Rights Movement was that "Racism" required power to really exist. I would submit that discrediting a General of the Confederacy who held this union together after the Civil war with a complete LIE is "power". We have a Black President and a Black Mayor. Racism is rampant in hiring practices and promotion throughout our entire government as we speak. MERIT is dead. Government is now a trough for the lazy to skate by until they can collect a pension. This in only true however if you are part of the right club.

We are going to become a nation that looks like Detroit.  You support this and are part of it. Somehow our green horn School board is part of it too. Vitti is a full blown idiot and I can not believe we pay him to destroy our culture. (350k right?) I mean look at him....totally inept and now he can claim this lie and run back to the north and brag how he fixed a wrong (that did not exist).  We should buy him a suit made of carpet! I never thought we could do worse than the weirdo guy before Pratt Daniels...now I cry for PD to return! We did not know what we had. It is obviously time to break up the school district. It has never been this clear before. Consolidation does not work for our school district.

I was asked to obey the "rules of civility" a few times on this site while that very person speaking this practiced the lowest of measures to win an argument without facts.  I was surprised because without me there WAS NO INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION on this site.  When I stopped posting this thread died.  You guys are bought and paid for because otherwise you would see that there was no factual reason to do this act. You were hired to make this change seem "okay."  You failed. I can claim that fact.

Every point  I made was ignored and every point was deflected. You begged for source and I gave it to you. We PROVED that Nathan Bedford Forrest was not in the KKK and yet that did not matter.

IT STILL DOES NOT MATTER. It only matters than a crazed racist black majority in Memphis needs to be legitimized. I guess Obama and Mayor Brown are there to help. 

Southern white strong regional heroes are on the chopping block. Before long little white girls will be picking out black dolls as a preference (converse to Clark study). Before long people will not be able to imagine white leaders. When does this stop? 

Life will go on but intellectual debate is over. It does not matter. At this point there is no discourse that is intelligent. This is now about power. The truth no longer matters and merit is dead.  You are but a salesmen and no longer a historian worth respect. 

When intellectual discourse is over then what? Think about this....you lynched a dead man who helped you. It took generations of lies and generations of fabrication but it finally has come to pass.

One can only hope that intellectual middle ground will be re-established or I fear for all our futures. I hope and trust that our respect for real history is not over.  It will be a while but I yearn for the next election. This vote will not be forgotten.

[thelakelander]

^Merry Christmas, Sgarey123.  As I mentioned 30 something pages ago, this was bound to happen either sooner or later. What new names would you suggest for the school formerly named after the white supremacist?