Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[thelakelander]

Sgarey123,

"Trend" is defined as a general direction in which something is developing or changing.

Synonyms include tendency, movement, drift, swing, shift, course, inclination, leaning, etc.  Nothing in the list you posted suggests "Trend" in naming schools after Confederate generals outside of the Great Depression.

Out of the dates posted, the naming of Forrest certainly seems somewhat isolated.  Nevertheless, the renaming of the school has little to do with Forrest representing the Confederacy. It's about the reasoning behind the school's naming and what that was intended to represent.  If anything, it's a show of disrespect to the guy you mentioned to have changed his views before his death.

[Demosthenes]

Why does "southerner" only equate with white dudes? Lake, aren't you a "southerner"?

[Tacachale]

I can find 6 schools in Duval County named for Confederates:

Edmund Kirby-Smith Middle School (1923); Kirby-Smith was a local and an educator.
Robert E. Lee High School (1927)
Nathan Bedford Forrest High School (1959)
Jefferson Davis Middle School (1961)
Stonewall Jackson Elementary School (1965)
JEB Stuart Middle School (1966, split from Forrest)

The latter four were all founded after Brown vs. the Board and originally opened as segregated, whites-only schools. They're all located within miles of each other in the Westside suburbs. That's the trend here.

[thelakelander]

Why does "southerner" only equate with white dudes? Lake, aren't you a "southerner"?

Last time I checked. However, I'm learning I'm not because my background doesn't fit Sgarey123's definition, so I have no idea what I am.

[Sgarey123]

okay so I go out on a limb and provide some data for you guys and you hop all over every small detail.  Go back in the thread if you do not understand why Lakelander wanted the info and why I said there was a trend.

The definition of "Southerner" was thoroughly discussed as well (its everyone in the Southern region).  However in this case we are talking Southern Regional early statehood to pre-WWI era military heroes.  For that choice you would only have so many people to choose from.  Those being USA Founders, pre-statehood leaders, Seminole wars leaders, and Civil war leaders in the 1920s. Florida was in Confederacy and therefore would chose heroes from Confederacy instead of Union for naming things.

Keep in mind that the term "Southern" also goes all the way back to the founders as an regional attitude of decentralized power (State's rights) vs centralized (Federalist).  To me it means you like collards and cornbread (culturally).  It means something different in many different contexts.   

There is a trend. I typed it up for you. Nathan Bedford was later but that by no means indicates proof of a middle finger theory.  A trend is more than 2...we have 7 and we have a few others that qualify. You had all the schools in 1920s...then you get the one in the late 30's. Then more in the late 40's...etc. etc...

The only reason I bring up Black American names is I do not want anyone to look at that list and not realize that the naming of the schools was not "spread around" to meet the needs of various sub cultures. Many of the names were chosen throughout the Civil Rights era around same time as Forrest High school.    Again, we are missing so many PS#s in that list too. If you noticed I put them in the order of PS#. It makes it sorta chronological.

I am glad that Confederate does not equal "founder of KKK" or War criminal.  NBF was not a war criminal. His alleged affiliation with  KKK was ended promptly when other chapters started doing things with which he did not agree.  These points are well worn out. 

You guys are welcome for the list. See if we can add dates to it and what each name means? I would love to see that information. 

Renaming the school is not the best tactics here. It will not improve this school. The system is the issue.

[thelakelander]

As Tacachale's post suggest, the only trend is an uptick in naming Westside schools after Brown vs the Board.  This trend pretty much suggest that naming and opening these all-white schools had significant racial undertones behind them.  Is this something you can agree with?  It's a stretch to keep suggesting that this is an attack on Confederate history.

[Sgarey123]

The original contention was that if there was no trend then it was to spite the Brown vs. Board of Education to name the school Nathan Bedford Forrest. I provided a logical trend that started in the 1920s and was continued over the next few decades. Keep in mind that I provided the total list to show there were A LOT of other schools built right around these same schools with names honoring other subcultures in the south, honoring dedicated public service leaders, and most being named after each street or neighborhood.

The PS#s that are missing could provide additional insight.  Duval and Staton were the originals. They could be #1 and #2. There was an Eastside school #3....Anne Lyttle #4.  What was number 5? There are a lot of gaps. Some of the details on the names are not very detailed.

Its really cool stuff. It would make a heck of an article on this site. It could even be a book. The saddest thing of all that I encountered is that almost every school did not have the history of their name listed. Some did but most did not.  Each school should teach what it was named for? Its the whole purpose! Its why I like naming schools after heroes too.

Renaming would ruin the opportunity for all those students to learn this history. The arguments surrounding it...the drama! Its really is special. A gold mine for learning and classroom discussion.

[Sgarey123]

The British could just wipe out all the things named after King Henry too. They do not do it though. It is great historical information. It is entertaining. We learn from it. We make deductions. Its special. 

They make money from it too.

[thelakelander]

The original contention was that if there was no trend then it was to spite the Brown vs. Board of Education to name the school Nathan Bedford Forrest. I provided a logical trend that started in the 1920s and was continued over the next few decades.

Two schools named in the 1920s, and then a controversial, out of the blue naming 30 years later does not fit the definition of a trend.

The PS#s that are missing could provide additional insight.  Duval and Staton were the originals. They could be #1 and #2. There was an Eastside school #3....Anne Lyttle #4.  What was number 5? There are a lot of gaps. Some of the details on the names are not very detailed.

I'm not sure school numbers were in order.  Isaiah Blocker Junior High opened the same year as Annie Lytle. However, it was public school 135 (or something like that). Located in Sugar Hill, Blocker was torn down years ago.  I don't know its history, but I assume it must have closed after desegregation.

[Tacachale]

Sgarey123, you said there was a trend to name schools after Southerners. That's true, as many schools are named for local figures, and Florida is part of the South. In terms of Confederates specifically, however, it's not true. There was no proliferation of schools named for Confederates before 1959; there were only two, and one of them was a local. Then, after 1959, we got four schools named for Confederates within 7 years. That's when the trend occurred.

[Demosthenes]

And in the US we have George Washington high, and Thomas Jefferson, and (gasp) Andrew Jackson high. Would that not be the American equivalent King Henry high?

Again, if I were a rabid "Southerner" (well, at least the white portion), I would take solace that the only name change anyone is calling for, is that of the KKK guy. I haven't heard anyone suggest we change Lee or Kirby Smith.

However, If the victor truely writes the history books, I want to see us rename Forrest as Sherman high, and Lee should become Grant High.

The British could just wipe out all the things named after King Henry too. They do not do it though. It is great historical information. It is entertaining. We learn from it. We make deductions. Its special. 

They make money from it too.

[Demosthenes]

Speaking of Willian Tecumseh Sherman, there is only one school named in his honor in NY. I like my plan to rename Forrest for Sherman.  Hell, he even had some impact in the Jax area, turning land along the St Johns river over to freed slaves, and later returning to Florida during the second Seminole wars.

I like this plan. I shall email the school board.

[Cliffs_Daughter]

Speaking of William Tecumseh Sherman, there is only one school named in his honor in NY.

No, not true... only one school in the full name of W.T. Sherman.
There IS a General Sherman Jr High in Lancaster, OH, where he is originally from.

[Demosthenes]

Oops. I see that now. One is General Sherman, the other is William T Sherman. My mistake.

Did you know that the Confederate General who was organizing resistance against Sherman's march to the sea was actually a Pall Bearer at his funeral?

[carpnter]

Speaking of Willian Tecumseh Sherman, there is only one school named in his honor in NY. I like my plan to rename Forrest for Sherman.  Hell, he even had some impact in the Jax area, turning land along the St Johns river over to freed slaves, and later returning to Florida during the second Seminole wars.

I like this plan. I shall email the school board.

The school board stopped naming schools after people a number of years ago.  I think the best name you will get will come from Firestone Rd High School, Westside High School, or Jacksonville Heights High School