To follow up on my wonderment at the absence of definitive documents, numbers, calculations, precedents, or other specifics regarding any Federal reimbursement exposure to JTA (not the City of Jacksonville), I offer some comments on this week's T-U Skyway article (posted below following comments).
-----------------------------------
The up and down (made-up?) number of the Federal reimbursement is now up to $90 million per JTA, from $50 to $70 million I recall hearing just a week or so ago (and I thought gas prices were rising fast 8) ). Notably, the US DOT never cited a number and, given JTA's history of self serving disinformation, how can we believe anything they put out?
Based on the article's statement that the Feds paid 57 percent of $185 million to build it, the Fed's appear to have about $105 million invested. So, after 20 plus years of operation, JTA is saying the Feds expect 86% of their original investment back? Really? Show me any other depreciable transit asset that depreciates at less than 1% per year. If that wasn't enough to question the credibility of JTA's number, note the reference by US DOT to any reimbursement being only associated with a termination before the end of the Skyway's "useful life". Did not one person think to find out what that might be? Few structures are given useful lives over 40 years and that's usually due to the IRS wanting to drag out depreciation, not due to anyone actually accomplishing that in real life. So, at 40 years even, the Skyway is over half way through its "useful life". That should put any "penalty" at half or so of what is being bandied about, if that's even a real number.
And, on the issue of an actual reimbursement, Mullaney is on to something with his questioning how aggressive the Feds would be in asking for money back. No one here has yet produced a canceled check to the Feds for a give back on a mass transit project.
Overall, the article's author appears to have NOT verified one single statement made for the article by checking documents and specifics. Seems like the myths go on unchallenged once again. Mica's statements seem mostly self serving for covering his "tracks" (no pun intended ;) ) so he doesn't look foolish supporting this monster.
Lastly, I am LOL at JTA's being "prepared to...demonstrate how important the Skyway is." After 20 years, what's suddenly changed? Lipstick on a pig. JTA then spouts the tired list of other never-coming mass transit projects that will finally show magically that the Skyway makes some kind of sense. The Skyway was supposed to be a downtown people mover, not a vital link in commuter transit to the suburbs as they imply here. This is another useless and smoke & mirrors proposition that constitutes re-writing and ignoring history to sucker more money out of taxpayers for the Skyway.
By the way, note the footnote in the graphic stating that JTA's Skyway contributions of millions of dollars comes from JTA's "Bus Fund". Now you know why JTA can't find a few hundred thousand dollars for bus shelters used by tens of thousands of more riders than the Skyway has. Misplaced priorities?
Overall, the tepid responses or outright rejection by the mayoral candidates validates my position that the Skyway is kryptonite in the hands of mass transit proponents. If they want mass transit to thrive, they will have to jettison the kryptonite.QuoteMayoral candidates call for closing Jacksonville Skyway, but lack power to do it
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-03-08/story/mayoral-candidates-call-closing-jacksonville-skyway-lack-power-do-it
By Larry Hannan
Two candidates for Jacksonville mayor have indicated they'll look into shutting down the Skyway if elected.
There's one problem: The mayor doesn't have the authority to do it.
Mike Hogan and Rick Mullaney have advocated getting rid of the Skyway, or at least shutting it down, in recent campaign appearances. But the 2.5-mile downtown people-mover, long derided for not going anywhere, is controlled by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, not by City Hall.
Despite its name, JTA is a state agency that doesn't have to do what the city says. Money to operate the Skyway comes primarily from sales and gas tax revenue, federal funding and a small amount of fare money.
"It is true," said JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock, "that the city has nothing to do with the Skyway."
By almost any measure, the Skyway has been a disaster. When it was built 20 years ago, JTA promised 100,000 riders per month but, in 2010, ridership was a third of that.
The system is also a huge money-loser. In 2010, it cost $5 million to operate it, but fares and parking revenue generated only $500,000.
Shutting down the Skyway could also have other financial implications. JTA said it would have to reimburse the federal government around $90 million if the Skyway is torn down because it paid the majority of costs to build it.
Officials with the U.S. Department of Transportation confirmed that the federal government would seek reimbursement if the system was shut down before meeting the end of its "useful life."
U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.
But that hasn't stopped Mullaney and Hogan from saying they want to get rid of it.
The Skyway is item No. 28 on Mullaney's 34-point plan. The plan says the Skyway is not working and costs millions of dollars each year.
Mullaney acknowledged that as mayor he would lack the authority to shut the Skyway down.
"But I don't really think that matters," Mullaney said. "The money JTA spends to operate the Skyway could be transferred to other areas of mass transit that people actually use."
If elected, Mullaney plans to meet with JTA officials and press for a moratorium, with the Skyway ceasing to operate for an undetermined amount of time.
"I want to take a step back and look at whether this will actually be useful," Mullaney said. "I think we can all agree that the way it is now doesn't work."
He doesn't want to tear the Skyway down and is open to it resuming operations sometime in the future when it is a better fit for the community.
The issue of having to pay back the government also needs to be addressed, but Mullaney doesn't believe the federal government would ask for the money back unless the tracks were actually torn down.
Hogan has said several times that he wants to get rid of the Skyway.
His staff e-mailed the Times-Union a three-sentence statement that said he's always been against the Skyway and believes the money spent funding it could be better used elsewhere.
Hogan did not respond to calls and e-mails asking how he'd shut it down, and whether he'd do it even if the federal government demanded reimbursement.
The other mayoral candidates aren't as determined to shut the Skyway down.
In fact, Audrey Moran wants to keep it open.
"I don't think it makes any sense to shut it down when you consider that we might have to pay $90 million to do it," Moran said. "We need to figure out a way to make it work."
The key is to redevelop downtown in a way that makes people want to come and ride the Skyway, she said.
Alvin Brown said he's neutral on it.
"Since the mayor doesn't control the Skyway," Brown said, "it makes more sense to push a combined vision."
As mayor, Brown would get together with JTA, downtown redevelopment groups, public officials like Mica and U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Fla., and private companies like CSX and ask what could be done to improve the Skyway.
Warren Lee said he'd look at ways to make the Skyway more viable.
"If there's no way to make it better, then we should shut it down," Lee said. "But that should only happen after we've looked at all the possibilities."
Lee said Mullaney and Hogan were irresponsible in calling for the shutdown of the Skyway when they lacked the ability to do it.
Moran agreed. "But to be fair," Moran said, "Skyway bashing has been a Jacksonville tradition for a long time."
The Skyway was built in the late 1980s for $185.7 million, with the federal government paying 57 percent of the cost, the state paying 20 percent, JTA paying 13 percent and the city paying 10 percent.
"We are prepared to work with the new mayor and will demonstrate how important the Skyway is," Blaylock said.
It's also not in JTA's interest to antagonize City Hall.
While the Skyway isn't funded by the city, JTA will soon be asking the mayor and City Council to extend the local 6-cent gas tax, which is scheduled to expire in 2016. The tax generates $30 million a year for JTA.
Blaylock said he is confident the next mayor will come to understand its importance.
JTA has plans to install bus-only lanes, is also looking at constructing a light rail, or trolley system, as well as building a commuter rail line from downtown Jacksonville to the suburbs. That system of transportation will feed into the Skyway, Blaylock said, increasing ridership and making the people-mover an essential part of the downtown renaissance.
Graphic below only reflects CASH losses, not total operating losses including depreciation.
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/SkywayMoney030811.gif)
Any idea on the cost paid to subsidize bus and PCT services on an annual basis? The overall system has significant route duplication and I wonder how they compare and how these systems can be better integrated with the skyway to save operational costs on the overall system. Once the skyway's operational life ends (btw, how long was it built to last?), I wonder if it would be possible to replace the monorail beam and skyway vehicles with tracks and streetcars.
Quote from: stjr on March 09, 2011, 09:45:17 PM
So, after 20 plus years of operation, JTA is saying the Feds expect 86% of their original investment back? Really? Show me any other depreciable transit asset that depreciates at less than 1% per year.
Rail infrastructure is typically rated between 50 and 100 years, with the track being at the 100 year mark. QuoteAnd, on the issue of an actual reimbursement, Mullaney is on to something with his questioning how aggressive the Feds would be in asking for money back.
Really? After Scott telling La Hood and Obama to take a flying leap, and JACKSONVILLE being "SCOTT CENTRAL?" Really? Rick and you are both dreaming if you don't think they'd love to make an example for Tallahassee to see. They were pretty damn aggressive at reassigning the money given to Wisconsin and Ohio too, letting them know if they misspent any of the monies they would be expected to repay it in full immediately. QuoteThe Skyway was supposed to be a downtown people mover, not a vital link in commuter transit to the suburbs as they imply here. This is another useless and smoke & mirrors proposition that constitutes re-writing and ignoring history to sucker more money out of taxpayers for the Skyway.
Don't wet yourself over your emotional Skyway breakdown STJR... Good Lord, what the hell do you think a downtown people mover is if not a vital link in commuter transit to the suburbs? IE: I would board the Skyway downtown - Northbank and step off at the San Marco Commuter Rail Platform to continue south... QuoteBy the way, note the footnote in the graphic stating that JTA's Skyway contributions of millions of dollars comes from JTA's "Bus Fund". Now you know why JTA can't find a few hundred thousand dollars for bus shelters used by tens of thousands of more riders than the Skyway has. Misplaced priorities?
No, perhaps because one of the main yardsticks applied to mass transit is passengers-per-mile-per-day, which makes the Skyway one of the best if not THE BEST route on the JTA system. QuoteOverall, the tepid responses or outright rejection by the mayoral candidates validates my position that the Skyway is kryptonite in the hands of mass transit proponents. If they want mass transit to thrive, they will have to jettison the kryptonite.
Not at all STJR, all it takes is a leader willing to get creative in making the Skyway part of a downtown experience rather then a somewhat detached elevated leviathan. Simple ideas could start the ball rolling from hot dog carts to tee-shirt sales and art displays, all of which would cause people to want to see what was in the next station. QuoteSeems like the myths go on unchallenged once again.
QuoteOfficials with the U.S. Department of Transportation confirmed that the federal government would seek reimbursement if the system was shut down before meeting the end of its "useful life."
U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.
You go right on believing that we can get away with this crazy notion of yours, "Officials with the U.S. Department of Transportation confirmed... Seems to indicate either you are calling the author a liar or you didn't read the article. QuoteMica's statements seem mostly self serving for covering his "tracks" so he doesn't look foolish supporting this monster.
I seriously doubt that John Mica would say it any other way just to appease you, he happens to be a big supporter of getting it FINISHED! If you want to fuss about something why not ask how we get JTA to shit or get off the SKYWAY'S pot?OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I respectfully read all your comments and agree with selected ones, particularly about having quality leadership and questioning the competency of JTA. And, I respect your transit expertise. But, I think you are too much in the weeds on much of this and are missing a bigger picture. That's OK, no harm. But, I believe you will be here 20 years from now making the same pronouncements unless you take a new tack.
It will be of more interest to see if the Feds make Florida return any of the seed money for the recently refused HSR. If they don't collect it back, I would say that bodes well that the Skyway won't have much exposure from an abandonment after 20 to 30 years of operations. Reassigning HSR or other transit money to other states from states that never accepted it isn't a reimbursement function, Ock.
The tracks may last 100 years but only after they have all but been replaced in position with "extreme makeovers" I would suggest. I know a few years ago JTA seemed to have major issues with concrete cracks and/or metal fatigue. Maybe you could refresh us on that. And, then, when the "expansion" Phase II was done and they switched vendors, I recall a major rework of the track system. Am I wrong on that? With overhauls like these, the tracks will last forever! But, it won't be the original install.
A downtown people mover means to me moving people about downtown. Not taking them on the first mile from a point downtown on the way home to the suburbs. Hey, I didn't name it a "Downtown People Mover". That's what they called it and said it was for. I believed them for once. ;D
You are telling me the Skyway provides more service than the entire bus system? Ock, I think you are manipulating statistics to suit your argument here - if there really is one. I am focused on VALUE - overall UTILITY. Not some isolated number that is irrelevant to the issue.
I didn't call anyone a liar, I just said the article lacked sufficient support, documentation, or fact checking to substantiate many of the implied or explicit claims made by "officials". Draw your own conclusions.
You can dream on about the Skyway not holding back mass transit in Northeast Florida. But, I believe you are living in a bubble. By the way, kudos to Lake for standing up for mass transit in general on First Coast Connect this week. I thought you did a great job articulating your points. Ock, if you listened in (I didn't catch the whole show unfortunately), I heard quite a few callers thinking far different than many of us here do about mass transit. This is the "wall of resistance" that I think you need to be paying attention to.
P.S. Lake, you should post the link to the audio on here and start building a multimedia library of MJ's "public" representations.
Skyway hype threads are the COOLEST!! Glad they are upgrading to the card reader system.
Here is a link to the First Coast Connect discussion about HSR. Its the Tuesday, March 8, 2011 mp3 link (fccmar0811.mp3):
http://www.wjct.org/first_coast_connect_podcast.xml
Btw, since the skyway brings in little fare box revenue, why not just make it free (aka. Miami Metromover)?
I agree with making the fare free for now. Have they tried advertising? Instead of Central Station, it could be AT&T Central. There could be ads wrapped on the skyway itself.
Funding...everyone is complaining about funding and that he money is a subsidy....does anyone know how much money has been subsidized to the oil and gas industry? our gov. has spent billions and billions to subsidize billionairs and people start complaining when the subsidies are going to help the actual people with something that isn't going to just blow away in the wind like gas does....it just seems stupid to bitch about one thing but not another...
Quote from: Garden guy on March 10, 2011, 08:00:04 AM
Funding...everyone is complaining about funding and that he money is a subsidy....does anyone know how much money has been subsidized to the oil and gas industry? our gov. has spent billions and billions to subsidize billionairs and people start complaining when the subsidies are going to help the actual people with something that isn't going to just blow away in the wind like gas does....it just seems stupid to bitch about one thing but not another...
Got any sources?
Quote
A downtown people mover means to me moving people about downtown. Not taking them on the first mile from a point downtown on the way home to the suburbs. Hey, I didn't name it a "Downtown People Mover". That's what they called it and said it was for. I believed them for once.
What I find funny is that your model of what the skyway should be would cause it to be a worse failure than it is now. For it to be effective in your model, people would have to constantly be leaving one downtown building and riding it to another like a bunch of ants. That may have worked in the 60's, but not today. Generally, people arrive at work in the morning, maybe leave the office once a day to get lunch, but that's it. For this type of usage, Ock's model is the only one that makes sense. Since you'll only get 2-4 rides at most out of somebody in the day, make it part of their journey to their office from their home in the burbs.
Quote
You are telling me the Skyway provides more service than the entire bus system? Ock, I think you are manipulating statistics to suit your argument here - if there really is one. I am focused on VALUE - overall UTILITY. Not some isolated number that is irrelevant to the issue.
I think riders per mile per day is the most important statistic, period. How else can you measure transit success?? I guess I can address how you totally misinterpreted Ock's point, but he'll probably to that later.
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 10, 2011, 07:48:36 AM
I agree with making the fare free for now. Have they tried advertising? Instead of Central Station, it could be AT&T Central. There could be ads wrapped on the skyway itself.
Are you suggesting that the City of Jacksonville allow advertising to sully the pristine surfaces of the Skyway?
I think the city should eliminate fares for the Skyway, advertise the Skyway (especially around Jags games or ArtWalk), and pursue advertisers. The first two would come first, and once ridership is up, you have an audience that marketers might be interested in.
I don't think tearing it down is a good idea. I mean, how many cities have a monorail downtown? We have that and the river and yet Jacksonville still can't figure out how to make downtown attractive to people?
Would'nt it be cool to take the skyway from downtown..through the middle of the river out to mandrin maybe....boy that would cost a big penny...but the ride would be awesome.
Quote
QuoteYou are telling me the Skyway provides more service than the entire bus system? Ock, I think you are manipulating statistics to suit your argument here - if there really is one. I am focused on VALUE - overall UTILITY. Not some isolated number that is irrelevant to the issue.
I think riders per mile per day is the most important statistic, period. How else can you measure transit success?? I guess I can address how you totally misinterpreted Ock's point, but he'll probably to that later.
Since we don't (to my knowledge) have varying rates for different bus routes, passengers per mile per day could also be read as revenue per mile per day.. Think, if 10 people ride from NAS Jax to downtown, each paying a single fare, what would that revenue per passenger per mile be?? At the same time, what if those same 10 people rode from the Southbank to the Northbank?? The revenue per passenger per mile would be considerably higher. Since vehicle operating costs aren't incurred on a per rider (rather per mile) basis, this means that revenue compared to operating cost for the skyway is much higher on a per mile basis. This makes a strong argument for continuing and expanding the skyway system.
Ock, any way you could get operation cost figures per mile for a bus and a skyway vehicle?? Based on my previous argument, I feel like we could determine the revenue difference on a per mile basis between skyway and bus. Then, from that we could determine the required useful life and revenue requirements to justify expansion of the system.
If Union Station were used vigorously as a regional transit center, IMHO, the utility of the Skyway could become quite substantial.
About this thread's missing posts: Unfortunately, as the thread initiator, I accidentally deleted this thread while accessing it from a smartphone touchscreen by hitting the "nuclear option" "REMOVE THREAD" button MJ had perilously positioned close to the page numbers at the bottom of thread. (I didn't even know I had that button until I realized I had subliminally absorbed its title when touching the screen and then confirmed it by bringing up another thread I started and seeing it in the same spot.)
Lunican has dutifully done his best to restore the thread but it appears no posts since March 10, 2011 were retrievable. (Lunican advises MJ has removed the "nuclear option" button now.) When I get a moment, I will re-post the NY Times article if I can find it that I posted over the weekend and we can rebuild the conversation going forward.
Thanks again, Lunican.
QuoteYou are telling me the Skyway provides more service than the entire bus system? Ock, I think you are manipulating statistics to suit your argument here - if there really is one. I am focused on VALUE - overall UTILITY. Not some isolated number that is irrelevant to the issue.
I didn't call anyone a liar, I just said the article lacked sufficient support, documentation, or fact checking to substantiate many of the implied or explicit claims made by "officials". Draw your own conclusions.
You can dream on about the Skyway not holding back mass transit in Northeast Florida. But, I believe you are living in a bubble. By the way, kudos to Lake for standing up for mass transit in general on First Coast Connect this week. I thought you did a great job articulating your points. Ock, if you listened in (I didn't catch the whole show unfortunately), I heard quite a few callers thinking far different than many of us here do about mass transit. This is the "wall of resistance" that I think you need to be paying attention to.
Passenger's Per Mile and/or Passengers Per Mile Per Day, PPM/PPMPD are the industry standard for performance of any transit system. The utility of the JTA bus system is counted the same way for national purposes. Boardings per day or hour can be used but they'll skew the the report enough to cause a scandal with the Times-Union wildly different then the number of passengers carried one mile. Boardings represent (or should) your fare revenue for any given period of time, but that WON'T give you utility because how many got on and off in a block or two and how many went from end to end of a route? Other transit guys on here can tell you that this isn't my crazy formula, and I sure didn't invent it, but it's about the best we can use.
That wall of resistance exists EVERYWHERE, and just about for everything. Most good ole boys have their wheels, hound dog and shotgun collection, they're not getting on your bus. What makes believers out of them is when a Rail Diesel Car or DMU or Streetcar etc... Pulls up in front of the brewery when the whistle blows and they realize their neighbor or work assistant is riding. I'm afraid it's more like Amway then it is Nike. I was in Los Angeles when the South Coast rapid transit project was shot to pieces, then the monorail, then round 5 or 6 the Subway finally started but cost overruns and delays unleashed angry mobs. You just do your very best, defend your cause at every turn as Lake did and remember the line from Galaxy Quest...Most transit managers think the business should be carried out like the tourneys of the Middle Ages. We have no use for knights; the industry needs revolutionaries.
NEVER GIVE UP - NEVER SURRENDER!
(http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/081003-F-6875C-983.jpg)(http://dev.dialhelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/100_1104-300x292.jpg)
OK, I am reposting the NY Times article I previously posted here that was accidentally deleted and could not be restored by MJ.
As I noted in my original posting, I think New Jersey's situation is indicative of how difficult, and possibly unlikely, the Fed's can/will recoup monies outlaid for failed transportation projects. Further, the Skyway has been built and operated for over 20 plus years as a "national demonstration project" so, its failure should hardly be hung forever on us locals. NJ never even started their project, a much less defensible position than we have. And, yet, they are putting up a real fight not to pay back.
I also noted the last paragraph that says for a $1 payment to the Feds, no interest accrues and the Feds must "negotiate a settlement". That doesn't seem to be a very high bar for ducking out of repayment.
As I have said before, all this just is just further evidence for my contention that a payback to the Feds over the Skyway being closed is just a red herring. I don't see it ever being enforced if it is even applicable.Quotehttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/30/nyregion/new-jersey-told-to-repay-us-for-hudson-tunnel-project.html?scp=1&sq=new%20jersey%20repay&st=cse
April 29, 2011
New Jersey Must Return $271 Million Spent on Hudson Tunnel, U.S. Insists
By PATRICK McGEEHAN
The next stop for New Jersey in its debt collection fight with the federal government may be federal court.
On Friday, the Transportation Department flatly rejected the state’s arguments for refusing to repay $271 million that was spent on a project, canceled last year, to build a pair of rail tunnels under the Hudson River. The message to Gov. Chris Christie was blunt: Repay now or we will collect the debt the hard way. Plus interest.
In a letter to New Jersey’s senators and representatives in Congress, Ray LaHood, the transportation secretary, warned that his department had “many tools under the Debt Collection Act to recoup the lost federal taxpayer funds, including withholding future state funding from a wide variety of sources.†But “in consideration of the current economic challenges burdening New Jersey,†Mr. LaHood added, he hoped to “develop a workable payment schedule†and avoid having to resort to those collection methods.
Mr. LaHood should not expect to find a check in the mail any time soon. Mr. Christie, who was in Massachusetts on Friday to speak at Harvard University, declared in January that “we are not paying the money back.â€
Kevin Roberts, a spokesman for Mr. Christie, said the governor’s staff would “review the decision before determining next steps moving forward.â€
One option is to sue the department to try to stop it from seeking to collect, but Mr. Roberts would not say if a lawsuit was being considered.
In the meantime, interest on the debt will pile up quickly. The federal government currently charges interest at a rate of 1 percent a year, which in this case amounts to more than $50,000 a week.
The dispute dates to last fall, when Mr. Christie, a Republican, chose to halt construction on the tunnel project, known as Access to the Region’s Core, or the ARC tunnel, which had just begun and was projected to cost $8.7 billion. The federal government had pledged to pay $3 billion of that cost, and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey had committed $3 billion more.
But Mr. Christie said he had become alarmed by estimates of potential cost overruns. He decided that New Jersey could not cover those excess costs and, over strenuous objections from Mr. LaHood and Senators Frank R. Lautenberg and Robert Menendez, canceled the project.
When federal transportation officials demanded that New Jersey repay money already spent on the project, Mr. Christie hired Patton Boggs, a Washington law firm, to challenge that demand. The lawyers, who reportedly have billed the state and New Jersey Transit about $800,000, argued that the state stopped the project because of unforeseen costs that were beyond its control.
But in his letter, Mr. LaHood said Mr. Christie had affirmed his support for the project a year ago when New Jersey Transit officials knew that the cost of the tunnel could rise as high as $12 billion.
Mr. Lautenberg and Mr. Menendez, both Democrats, issued a joint statement criticizing the approach taken by Patton Boggs.
“We worked hard to get the parties to negotiate a fair resolution of this conflict,†the senators said. “However, the state’s outside lawyers pursued an all-or-nothing approach, which brings substantial risk to New Jersey taxpayers.â€
A federal official involved in the dispute said the state could have offered to repay as little as $1 and the government would have been obligated to negotiate a settlement, a process which could have dragged on for years. All the while, no interest would have accrued on the debt, according to the official, who was not authorized to speak on the record.
Quote from: stephendare on May 07, 2011, 03:35:38 PM
youve still never explained how you will replace a 100 million dollar transit bridge over the river, STJR.
This is all nonsense on your part, driven by irrationalism.
Stephen, "discussing" this with you is like killing weeds in the garden or one of those "whack-em" games at the fair. Kill one point and you spring back with another. I have addressed your "bridge" on countless other Skyway threads. Go back and re-read them if you want your answer. I am not going to repeat it hear for the umpteenth time.
By the way, although there are solutions to the bridge issue, I am not sure one is even necessary. There doesn't seem to be much demand for the current bridge connection and water taxis, a bus, a commuter rail line with stops on either side of the river, or other transit modes could handle any subsequent demand for possibly a lot less.
I think it's more important right now to build a viable downtown loop followed by a Southbank loop. The bridge connecting nothing at the moment is putting the cart before the horse. Taking your position, you can keep your Skyway bridge running at the expense of never having anything viable in Downtown or the Southbank to support it. I don't subscribe to that obviously.
Quote from: stephendare on May 07, 2011, 04:07:11 PM
You propose building in another hundred to two hundred million dollars into the expense of rolling out a citywide transit system.
My post you are responding to:QuoteBy the way, although there are solutions to the bridge issue, I am not sure one is even necessary. There doesn't seem to be much demand for the current bridge connection and water taxis, a bus, a commuter rail line with stops on either side of the river, or other transit modes could handle any subsequent demand for possibly a lot less.
Stephen, since you aren't "listening" I won't waste my time responding further to your above post.
Quote from: stephendare on May 07, 2011, 04:17:46 PM
so your 'solution' is--we might not need transit?
"....water taxis, a bus, a commuter rail line with stops on either side of the river, or other transit modes..." So, let's add to "not listening" putting words in opposition's mouth that are completely imagined and/or fabricated. Good try Stephen, but since you are not actually debating, I am not biting.
Quote from: stjr on May 07, 2011, 04:23:54 PM
Quote from: stephendare on May 07, 2011, 04:17:46 PM
so your 'solution' is--we might not need transit?
"....water taxis, a bus, a commuter rail line with stops on either side of the river, or other transit modes..."
do you understand that commuter rail will likely only run hourly....with 30 min. service possible during the am and pm peak periods?
Quote from: stjr on May 07, 2011, 03:32:24 PM
OK, I am reposting the NY Times article I previously posted here that was accidentally deleted and could not be restored by MJ.
As I noted in my original posting, I think New Jersey's situation is indicative of how difficult, and possibly unlikely, the Fed's can/will recoup monies outlaid for failed transportation projects. Further, the Skyway has been built and operated for over 20 plus years as a "national demonstration project" so, its failure should hardly be hung forever on us locals. NJ never even started their project, a much less defensible position than we have. And, yet, they are putting up a real fight not to pay back.
I also noted the last paragraph that says for a $1 payment to the Feds, no interest accrues and the Feds must "negotiate a settlement". That doesn't seem to be a very high bar for ducking out of repayment.
As I have said before, all this just is just further evidence for my contention that a payback to the Feds over the Skyway being closed is just a red herring. I don't see it ever being enforced if it is even applicable.
And when you pull back the dog and the pony, you'll still have a massive expense taking the damn thing down. So your crystal ball tells us we wouldn't have to pay back the money? Cool, because once the federal government files suit against the city and our bond rating drops somewhere below Haiti's, we have it from the horses mouth that nobody that does this can expect ANY federal funds for a long, long, time... a time we can't afford just so you can say, "See I wrecked the train." I agree with Stephen that this is VERY tiring, this years long attack against any transit that doesn't "make money" is droll boarding on buffoonery. Quote"discussing" this with you is like killing weeds in the garden or one of those "whack-em" games at the fair. Kill one point and you spring back with another.
WTF? Isn't this exactly what you have been doing to our "Red Herring?" Frankly me thinkith thou doest flounder. OCKLAWAHA
Most people in Jacksonville have cars and are comfortable driving most places they want to get to.
Therefore, I'd target people in Jacksonville who don't have cars if I wanted to see a transit success.
All of my attention would go on transit to and from the airport. Parking prices are outrageous at the airport, they'd use transit there to avoid it.
People arriving would definately hop on a transit system, rather than rent a car.
I love the way Baltimore's light rail is right at the exit of BWI Airport. That's fantastic.
We're talking hundreds of million on transit, but the airport is getting shafted.
That's where we need it most. That's where it'd be used the most. That's where we'd appreciate it.
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 26, 2011, 10:48:56 PM
Most people in Jacksonville have cars and are comfortable driving most places they want to get to.
Therefore, I'd target people in Jacksonville who don't have cars if I wanted to see a transit success.
All of my attention would go on transit to and from the airport. Parking prices are outrageous at the airport, they'd use transit there to avoid it.
People arriving would definately hop on a transit system, rather than rent a car.
I love the way Baltimore's light rail is right at the exit of BWI Airport. That's fantastic.
We're talking hundreds of million on transit, but the airport is getting shafted.
That's where we need it most. That's where it'd be used the most. That's where we'd appreciate it.
I love BWI and Regan so convenient with the transit. That said connecting our urban core neighborhoods is where I think we should start. Airport and Beach would be great after. Commuter rail can come very close to the Airport and a fixed rail connection would be perfect.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 26, 2011, 10:57:59 PM
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 26, 2011, 10:48:56 PM
Most people in Jacksonville have cars and are comfortable driving most places they want to get to.
Therefore, I'd target people in Jacksonville who don't have cars if I wanted to see a transit success.
All of my attention would go on transit to and from the airport. Parking prices are outrageous at the airport, they'd use transit there to avoid it.
People arriving would definately hop on a transit system, rather than rent a car.
I love the way Baltimore's light rail is right at the exit of BWI Airport. That's fantastic.
We're talking hundreds of million on transit, but the airport is getting shafted.
That's where we need it most. That's where it'd be used the most. That's where we'd appreciate it.
I love BWI and Regan so convenient with the transit. That said connecting our urban core neighborhoods is where I think we should start. Airport and Beach would be great after. Commuter rail can come very close to the Airport and a fixed rail connection would be perfect.
The Skyway, as it sits now, has a public image problem. That much is certain, which is why it was omitted from the mobility plan.
I think that we need to be very careful with our next move. It can make or break transit in Jacksonville. We need something the community can get behind.
Therefore, I really think we have to gear it towards tourists. The locals will wait back and use their cars. If we focus on the airport (and the Beach like you mentioned), then I think we can really get something going.
Tourists will be more inclined to use transit than residents in the early days simply because they're emerging from the airport with bags, tired, and looking for the easiest way to a shower.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 26, 2011, 11:29:10 PM
I hear you and not a bad suggestion I still think I come down on the streetcar line from Riverside to the Landing, sports district and Springfield first. Added benefit it is already in the approved mobility plan.
I am going bck to DC in July and when I get off the plan and take the Train to Gaithersburg I may come around to your line of thinking.
Well, the problem with the streetcar from Riverisde to downtown being first is the image problem.
Riverisde and downtown are two of the most affluent communities in Jacksonville. The rest of the city will view tens of millions of dollars in investment on "people who already have money" negatively. Much like they view the skyway.
I think it will be another wedge issue that'll hurt the image of downtown and transit here in Jacksonville. If it were up to me, I'd definately put my energy on something with a better public image for the first project. Airport. The beach (people hate driving home wet in a hot car). We need a home run with our first at bat.
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 26, 2011, 11:32:36 PM
The beach (people hate driving home wet in a hot car). We need a home run with our first at bat.
I think you may be on to something there.
Phase 1 Riverside starter line the council approved it. Now lets show them some support for this bold( In Jacksonville) action. We need to rally support not pick this apart with how they could have done it differently.
We're talking about a huge new transit center for Amtrak, Greyhound, Skyway, Streetcar, and Busses. However, as it sits now, the only way to get there from the airport is one bus that runs every hour (and not even on the hour).
The airport is our only real success in terms of transit. We are shooting ourselves in the foot not tying the airport into the system. We've got to get fixed transit from the airport to the transportation hub, or we're missing our biggest oppurtunity to make it work.
QuoteMost people in Jacksonville have cars and are comfortable driving most places they want to get to.
Therefore, I'd target people in Jacksonville who don't have cars if I wanted to see a transit success.
All of my attention would go on transit to and from the airport. Parking prices are outrageous at the airport, they'd use transit there to avoid it.
I agree with parts of this. Most people are comfortable driving their cars. However, I'd argue that there are 20,000+ people in the core neighborhoods that would ditch their car if our transit system was more efficient. I would focus on the core neighborhoods first.
Using Jer... Big Guy's 'live and let die' way of thinking, forget Mandarin and Baldwin. They will stick to their cars no matter what. Why try and create a transit system that caters to them?? We should first work on attracting the progressive people in Jacksonville and then branch out to the 'burb dwellers. The progressive people live in the core neighborhoods.
A line to the airport won't do much for the citizens of Jacksonville. It will make us a much better location for business and conventions, but that's another story for another time. People are already stressed out when they are about to fly. Asking them to ditch their car and try the train is just adding one more hassle to their trip. They aren't willing to gamble on something like transit at an already stressful time. The best idea is to give people in the core neighborhoods the option to ride from their neighborhood to downtown or another core neighborhood at their leisure. Once they see that the system is efficient, cheap and time saving, then they will ride it to and from work. Once there is a consistent following of riders, land value will go up around stations, infill will occur, and then we're in business.
The core neighborhoods do have all the money. They also set a lot of the trends around here. Only when the core neighborhoods have fully embraced the skyway, or whatever other transit we implement, will the suburbanites join in.
The Riverside Trolley runs pretty regularly. It hits all the key spots in Avondale, Riverside, Brooklyn, and downtown.
I use it 3-4 times a week, but isn't exactly overflowing with riderships. It's a shame, because it's a great service.
If this area won't use the trolley for work, or to get to downtown, why is there such a strong belief they'd give up their cars for the Skyway or a streetcar?
I leave for work at 7:30. I usually leave from work at 6:30. The riverside trolley has nothing to offer me. Not to mention I work in Southpoint.
If the trolley had hours where I could actually use it, I would. As of now it doesn't.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 27, 2011, 11:49:55 AM
I leave for work at 7:30. I usually leave from work at 6:30. The riverside trolley has nothing to offer me. Not to mention I work in Southpoint.
If the trolley had hours where I could actually use it, I would. As of now it doesn't.
How would a Streetcar or Skyway get you to Southpoint?
You're also assuming either would have different hours than the Riverside Trolley.
I think there's a little excitement (and desperation) for anything to happen transit-wise, that we're not thinking it through.
QuoteIf this area won't use the trolley for work, or to get to downtown, why is there such a strong belief they'd give up their cars for the Skyway or a streetcar?
My comment was in response to this gem.
I don't use the trolley currently, because I can't. I would use the trolley if it had weekend and evening hours. I never mentioned the skyway or streetcar in my previous post.... So your assumption based on the assumption that I didn't make is just pointless.
If there was reliable transit that had brief headways, extended hours, and quick service... I would ride it. It could look like the Oscar Meyer wiener and I'd ride it.
For starters, let's decrease time between cars and increase the hours of the Trolley. It is my assertion that ridership would increase.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 27, 2011, 11:58:50 AM
QuoteIf this area won't use the trolley for work, or to get to downtown, why is there such a strong belief they'd give up their cars for the Skyway or a streetcar?
My comment was in response to this gem.
I don't use the trolley currently, because I can't. I would use the trolley if it had weekend and evening hours. I never mentioned the skyway or streetcar in my previous post.... So your assumption based on the assumption that I didn't make is just pointless.
If there was reliable transit that had brief headways, extended hours, and quick service... I would ride it. It could look like the Oscar Meyer wiener and I'd ride it.
For starters, let's decrease time between cars and increase the hours of the Trolley. It is my assertion that ridership would increase.
What would you suggest in terms of a 'brief' headway? At certain points in the day, there is a trolley every 12 minutes.
What would you suggest for the hours of the trolley? The trolley currently runs from 5 am to 7 pm.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'quick service.'
I'd really like to get some Trolley feedback, because I use it multiple times each week. I love it, but it's usually just me on it.
To make it feasible for lunch for downtown and riverside employees, 7 minute headways or less should be implemented. A 12 minute headway is almost a quarter of the lunch hour. People can't afford to gamble like that.
I would suggest 6 am-10pm or later. On the weekends I suggest 20 minute headways after 8 pm, but run cars until midnight or later.
By quick service I mean it should be nearly as fast as driving yourself. The trolley alleviates the need for parking, but if it takes you 15 minutes to get from DT to 5 points, it's not worth it.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 27, 2011, 12:08:22 PM
To make it feasible for lunch for downtown and riverside employees, 7 minute headways or less should be implemented. A 12 minute headway is almost a quarter of the lunch hour. People can't afford to gamble like that.
I would suggest 6 am-10pm or later. On the weekends I suggest 20 minute headways after 8 pm, but run cars until midnight or later.
By quick service I mean it should be nearly as fast as driving yourself. The trolley alleviates the need for parking, but if it takes you 15 minutes to get from DT to 5 points, it's not worth it.
Do you think a Skyway extension or the proposed street car will address those things?
I'm not saying they won't. The truth is I don't know.
But, what I do know, is that if we don't find out why people aren't using the Trolley, and make sure the new transit addresses those concerns, it won't be the success it needs to be. :-[
In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2011, 12:19:31 PM
In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.
JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.
That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.
Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.
Quote
But, what I do know, is that if we don't find out why people aren't using the Trolley, and make sure the new transit addresses those concerns, it won't be the success it needs to be.
Very true. I feel like we don't often do this in our city.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 27, 2011, 12:27:13 PM
Quote
But, what I do know, is that if we don't find out why people aren't using the Trolley, and make sure the new transit addresses those concerns, it won't be the success it needs to be.
Very true. I feel like we don't often do this in our city.
I think RAP/JTA should get together and have a 'town hall' style event to get feedback from the local residents about the Trolley. Find out why they say, "Oh. That's cute, but I think I'll still drive." And then see if there's anything we can get from that to apply to future transit in the area.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2011, 12:19:31 PM
In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.
JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.
That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.
Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.
What on earth are you talking about?
The so called 'great service' you are talking about is just a bus. Its painted like a trolley, but its not a trolley and is still a bus service.
You do know that they are two different things right?
Like you don't think that if they used one of the painted buses to go to run the regency route that it would be a 'new service' do you?
"Just a bus?" How can any transit advocates dismiss a bus. It's the most used and available form of mass transit in the world.
Our Trolley is a great service. I walk two extra blocks to Bay Street, with discomfort, just to take the trolley instead of one of JTA's traditional busses.
It's very fun to ride. I like the benches, the straps, and the sound effects. I ride it 6-8 times a week and I have nothing but rave reviews for it.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:41:42 PM
yes. It is just a bus. It is not a new service, and in is not in any way similar to either the proposed trolley lines, nor the skyway.
Its interesting that your opinions about transit revolve around the straps and sound effects, but Im not sure how relevant such opinions are.
But why aren't people riding it? Because they're "transit snobs" who won't ride any bus, regardless of design?
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:45:03 PM
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 12:42:34 PM
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:41:42 PM
yes. It is just a bus. It is not a new service, and in is not in any way similar to either the proposed trolley lines, nor the skyway.
Its interesting that your opinions about transit revolve around the straps and sound effects, but Im not sure how relevant such opinions are.
But why aren't people riding it? Because they're "transit snobs" who won't ride any bus, regardless of design?
Hmm. So the 99% of people who refuse to ride JTA buses are just 'transit snobs' eh?
Perhaps you can explain why Jacksonville has such a supernaturally high percentage of these people?
Is it because of our extremely high levels of per capita wealth?
I don't know if they're "transit snobs." I was asking you if that was the reason, because I don't know.
The Riverside Trolley is fantastic. It goes everywhere along the river from Kent to the Landing. It's cheap. It's clean. They're all new and attractive vehicles. They're marketed well. They do special events.
But, ridership is low.
I think it's important we identify the reason(s) why.
Because I don't think you can replace the Riverside Trolley with a proposed streetcar or Skyway expansion, and automatically think they'll succeed where the trolley has not, jus because one is a "bus" and one is "not a bus."
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 12:23:39 PM
JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.
That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.
Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.
I don't think I'd call the PCT "trolley" as it currently runs a "great service", BigGuy. It's merely just OK. I know if I could catch it from the Park and King area in Riverside to downtown or to Avondale or San Marco after work or on weekends for drinks and dinner, I would; however if it stops running at 7 pm that pretty much limits your entertainment options to the early bird special only. Not having to drive after imbibing a few drinks would be great; getting stranded downtown when the service has already stopped running at 7 pm? Not so great.
May as well drive, ride your bike, or walk.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:50:54 PM
QuoteBecause I don't think you can replace the Riverside Trolley with a proposed streetcar or Skyway expansion, and automatically think they'll succeed where the trolley has not, jus because one is a "bus" and one is "not a bus."
hmm. So where are you finding the data that the painted bus that runs the old WS1 route has 'failed'?
What do you base your comparison upon?
I base everything I say on first-hand experience and knowledge. I ride the trolley. I'd go as far to say that I rely on the trolley. But, there have been times when I have been on the Trolley from the Landing to the Five Points (and back again) and been the only passenger the entire time.
That is enough to tell me, based on nothing else, that not enough people are using it.
I want to know why they're not using it, because if we can identify the reasons, we can correct them in both the Trolley and future projects like the street car and have a much better service that everyone can utilize and enjoy.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:56:49 PM
so youve ridden every trip of every riverside painted bus that runs the old WS1 route? (actually just half of it)
Tell me, big guy. How does the newly painted bus routes numbers compare with the older bus routes numbers?
To the Five Points I have ridden the WS12, R5, P3, and P4. Possibly others, but those are ones I have used within the last several weeks.
On several occassions, there was barely a seat to be had. But I do not recall a time when any of these routes were as empty as the Riverside Trolley.
However, and I think is is worth noting, when I use these routes to go to Riverside, I rarely see anyone debarking before or in Riverside and am usually waiting at the bus stops in Riverside alone.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 01:01:37 PM
The Route is almost exactly the same as the old WS1 route.
Except it doesnt go as far.
How do the numbers compare on this route to the ones before they substituted a newly painted bus?
Do you know?
No. I do not know.
I just know it is a great route. Covers everywhere I want to go on the Northbank. Runs a great timetable compared to other routes. And they look (and sound) great. More people should use it.
It does not matter if you call them "transit snobs" or whatever fixed rail transit attracts riders that buses don't. Bus stigma is real. The great thing is fixed rail will also grow the bus service around it. Snobbery is one reason but their is a more important reason. Developers like fixed rail because it is not flexible they can invest based on it with better assurance that the route won't change. People planing their life where should I live, how will I get to work and where will I spend my free time if they want transit to be pert of that equation fixed is better for the same reason. You buy or rent a place and then some new development off your route springs up and buses are rerouted. We can go round and round about the logic but the truth is fixed rail attracts more riders and much more investment dollars.
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 12:42:34 PM
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:41:42 PM
yes. It is just a bus. It is not a new service, and in is not in any way similar to either the proposed trolley lines, nor the skyway.
Its interesting that your opinions about transit revolve around the straps and sound effects, but Im not sure how relevant such opinions are.
But why aren't people riding it? Because they're "transit snobs" who won't ride any bus, regardless of design?
Because buses are a crappy form of transit, period. You have to remember why we even have buses to begin with (they were part of a systematic dismantling of real viable transit by the auto/oil giants to benefit them, make public transit less attractive & so that we'd drive more). And thats not conspiracy theory shit either, its real.
Quote from: stephendareYou don't know?
Then it sounds like you created a straw man out of your assumptions, Im afraid.
Lets dissect this.
You claimed as a fact that the JTA had launched a great new service that was a form of alternate transit.
In fact, it was exactly the same as the old service, but with a slightly different style of bus.
You then claimed that the 'new service' was a 'failure'
In fact, you have no idea whether the route is doing either better or worse than it ever has.
You then claimed that an actual transit mode change would 'fail' based on the imaginary failure of the 'new service' that is absolutely not a new service.
Can you explain this?
The argument has been made that a person who will not ride a bus, will ride a fixed rail transit system.
I do not accept that argument.
Therefore, I make the assertion that if a bus system is not performing well in an area, neither will a fixed rail transit system.
However, I think you're missing what I'm doing here. We've got years before this streetcar would be in operation. The Trolley is out there right now. I want the Trolley to succeed, and I think it's success would help the street car, skyway, or any other mode of transit eventually succeed. To that end, I am soliciting opinions on how to improve the trolley.
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 01:23:55 PM
Quote from: stephendareYou don't know?
Then it sounds like you created a straw man out of your assumptions, Im afraid.
Lets dissect this.
You claimed as a fact that the JTA had launched a great new service that was a form of alternate transit.
In fact, it was exactly the same as the old service, but with a slightly different style of bus.
You then claimed that the 'new service' was a 'failure'
In fact, you have no idea whether the route is doing either better or worse than it ever has.
You then claimed that an actual transit mode change would 'fail' based on the imaginary failure of the 'new service' that is absolutely not a new service.
Can you explain this?
The argument has been made that a person who will not ride a bus, will ride a fixed rail transit system.
I do not accept that argument.
Therefore, I make the assertion that if a bus system is not performing well in an area, neither will a fixed rail transit system.
However, I think you're missing what I'm doing here. We've got years before this streetcar would be in operation. The Trolley is out there right now. I want the Trolley to succeed, and I think it's success would help the street car, skyway, or any other mode of transit eventually succeed. To that end, I am soliciting opinions on how to improve the trolley.
Speaking personally, I won't ride a bus. But I would ride a streetcar or train.
I don't have 4 hours to waste on JTA's kafkaesque system trying to get anywhere. Neither does anyone else who has any kind of schedule they have to keep. JTA is simply a last-resort for people who have no other option. Meaning the family Golden Retriever became too old to ride on his back to Publix anymore to avoid taking the bus, and they tried riding a herpetic mule to work but it caught colic and died. Only then would most people realistically consider riding JTA buses.
A train runs on its own track on a fixed schedule, whooooole different animal.
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorSpeaking personally, I won't ride a bus. But I would ride a streetcar or train.
I don't have 4 hours to waste on JTA's kafkaesque system trying to get anywhere. Neither does anyone else who has any kind of schedule they have to keep. JTA is simply a last-resort for people who have no other option. Meaning the family Golden Retriever became too old to ride on his back to Publix anymore to avoid taking the bus, and they tried riding a herpetic mule to work but it caught colic and died. Only then would most people realistically consider riding JTA buses.
A train runs on its own track on a fixed schedule, whooooole different animal.
It has never taken me four hours to get anywhere riding JTA.
Each JTA route has a fixed schedule as well, and in my experience using the system, they usually run on time or no more than 5 minutes late.
Am I the only one on the forum who supports JTA?
Quote from: stephendarehmm. You made a straw man argument. Really thats all that you did at the end of the day.
Considering that it was completely factually wrong and partially fabricated, why should your opinion on transit other than your direct riding experience be taken seriously?
I mean, the only factual thing that I could take away from your posts so far is that some riders like the sound effects and buckles.
Also, during certain times of the day as presently scheduled, the bus only has one rider on it.
Other than that, it seems like a bunch of speculation and unfounded opinion.
I have posted nothing factually wrong or fabricated. I am sharing my opinions, views, and experiences on the transit system. I rely solely on JTA to get around the city. I utilize the system often, and I think my first hand experience as a rider should play a part in the discussion.
Quote from: stephendare1. What is a 'fixed' schedule?
2. What is a 'fixed' route?
3. Can you explain how they are similar/different?
A 'fixed' schedule means the mode of transit will arrive at a set time.
A 'fixed' route means the route is set in stone because it has been constructed that way, such as a streetcar, train, or skyway.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 01:41:28 PM
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 01:38:35 PM
Quote from: stephendarehmm. You made a straw man argument. Really thats all that you did at the end of the day.
Considering that it was completely factually wrong and partially fabricated, why should your opinion on transit other than your direct riding experience be taken seriously?
I mean, the only factual thing that I could take away from your posts so far is that some riders like the sound effects and buckles.
Also, during certain times of the day as presently scheduled, the bus only has one rider on it.
Other than that, it seems like a bunch of speculation and unfounded opinion.
I have posted nothing factually wrong or fabricated. I am sharing my opinions, views, and experiences on the transit system. I rely solely on JTA to get around the city. I utilize the system often, and I think my first hand experience as a rider should play a part in the discussion.
You literally just got through admitting that you posted information on something you didnt know anything about, and you were just confronted with a laundry list of the factual inaccuracies of your post. If you cannot remember what you can literally read a few posts above, why would your opinion of transit comparisons be of any value?
I believe you can learn more about transit by using it, than you can by studying it.
Therefore I offer what I see in contrast to what you read.
Like Big Guy I also ride the Riverside Trolley on a regular basis. It's essentially the same as a bus, but it's a lot less crowded. I like riding it very much, but even I have a few minor gripes.
My #1 gripe is that it doesn't really go downtown. The Landing would be an okay endpoint if there were connections there to other bus routes. The Bay Street trolley runs so infrequently that it almost always makes more sense for me to walk about ten minutes from The Landing to my office on Forsyth Street.
#2 is that for work trips, 35 minutes can be a long time between buses trolleys. In the middle of the day 12 minutes is probably too long for most people who might want to use it to go downtown or to Five Points for lunch.
#3 is that the JTA doesn't allow you to eat or drink on one of their vehicles.
A distant #4 gripe is the nearly incessant recorded announcements, about not eating drinking or smoking on the bus, about not using foul language on the bus, about the Jacksonville Journey, etc.
On the plus side the buses and trolleys that I've ridden have all been clean and very reliable. What's really neat is that at the other end from downtown, the Riverside Trolley has a stop located nearly at my back door.
It would also be nice if it ran later at night, more frequently on Saturdays, and on Sundays at all.
I know that there have been meetings between RAP and the JTA at the staff level, and that RAP is very interested in helping to promote the Riverside Trolley.
In my own view, and as I've stated before, I don't think there are many people who are bothered by the fact that the "trolleys" in this city are actually buses. Even when buses are not the backbone of a transit system, they are nearly always the arms and the legs. The more rail you have, the more buses you have too.
Quote from: stephendareActually, a fixed schedule is one that does not change.
The JTA bus schedules and routes have been through twelve major changes in the past 3 years. There is not a fixed schedule for any one of the buses.
I gave up my cars three years ago, spent 60+ days doing nothing except riding every route, every bus in order to report on the experience for metrojacksonville, big guy. So while I appreciate your POV, once again you are making assumptions that are false.
I do not speak about JTA from the POV of someone who has only 'read' about it. Nor do you have a greater amount of experience with actual JTA routes, buses and polices than I do.
Since that time, I completely stopped driving in order to live according to my own convictions about carbon footprinting. In the course of my life and my daily job, I travel all over the city using transit whenever possible.
So once again, it sounds like you don't know much about this subject, despite the fact that you feel prudent to weigh in with factual sounding comparisons.
Wouldnt it be easier to simply ask instead? Or I dunno.....maybe read the actual site first?
If you would read what I post instead of just jumping on me and bashing me at every turn, you'll see what all I've done in this thread is ask for people's opinions on how to improve the trolley.
Obviously some people saw that as Captain Zissou, Dashing Dan, and others have offered helpful, constructive criticism on how to improve the system. Despite your best efforts to once again derail the thread and turn it into another round of bickering between you and I.
After reading the thread it looks like people would like to see the following...
1. During peak lunch hours increase the time between trolleys from 12 minutes to 7 minutes.
2. Increase the service hours past 7 o'clock on weeknights.
3. Increase the service hours past 8 o'clock on Saturday.
4. Make a direct link withe the Bay Street trolley and have the time table coordinate so that as the Riverside Trolley arrives, passengers can transfer immediately to a Bay Street Trolley that would leave immediately. And vice versa.
I have also proposed RAP and JTA combining for a town hall summit of sorts to get feedback from the community and answer questions.
I think these are all good points people have made. Did I leave anything out?
Modified to add. I also think the Trolley scheduled should be posted at key locations throughout the route.
I like the subject line for this thread.
When I was in college in Philadelphia I rode many PTC trolleys, i.e. before SEPTA took over the PTC.
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 02:03:57 PM
After reading the thread it looks like people would like to see the following...
1. During peak lunch hours increase the time between trolleys from 12 minutes to 7 minutes.
2. Increase the service hours past 7 o'clock on weeknights.
3. Increase the service hours past 8 o'clock on Saturday.
4. Make a direct link withe the Bay Street trolley and have the time table coordinate so that as the Riverside Trolley arrives, passengers can transfer immediately to a Bay Street Trolley that would leave immediately. And vice versa.
I have also proposed RAP and JTA combining for a town hall summit of sorts to get feedback from the community and answer questions.
I think these are all good points people have made. Did I leave anything out?
Modified to add. I also think the Trolley scheduled should be posted at key locations throughout the route.
Bring back the Laura Ocean trolley.
Increase the frequencies, on all trolleys at all times.
I'll just say this. The only place I have ever regularly ridden as bus was in Gainesville. For 2 reasons. 1) It was free 2) It was resonably on schedule.
We went to San Fran and rode the streetcars everywhere. We never got on a bus and would have cabbed it before bus without a thought.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 02:19:05 PM
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 02:03:57 PM
After reading the thread it looks like people would like to see the following...
1. During peak lunch hours increase the time between trolleys from 12 minutes to 7 minutes.
2. Increase the service hours past 7 o'clock on weeknights.
3. Increase the service hours past 8 o'clock on Saturday.
4. Make a direct link withe the Bay Street trolley and have the time table coordinate so that as the Riverside Trolley arrives, passengers can transfer immediately to a Bay Street Trolley that would leave immediately. And vice versa.
I have also proposed RAP and JTA combining for a town hall summit of sorts to get feedback from the community and answer questions.
I think these are all good points people have made. Did I leave anything out?
Modified to add. I also think the Trolley scheduled should be posted at key locations throughout the route.
Hmm. So it sounds like what you are describing is the frequency and reliability that is provided by a trolley line, Big Guy. Nice Job.
Although I think that RAP should probably meet with an MJ sponsored panel. After all we have been studying the issue for 6 years now.
Well, Stephen. I said several pages back that's important to identify criticisms people have about the Riverside Trolley, so that they can be addressed in future transit projects, including the streetcar.
However, by even the most optimistic assessments, such a streetcar is years away. Instead of sitting around waiting for a streetcar, I think there are things we can do to improve the Riverside Trolley in the coming weeks and months.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 02:35:39 PM
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2011, 12:19:31 PM
In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.
JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.
That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.
Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.
What on earth are you talking about?
The so called 'great service' you are talking about is just a bus. Its painted like a trolley, but its not a trolley and is still a bus service.
You do know that they are two different things right?
Like you don't think that if they used one of the painted buses to go to run the regency route that it would be a 'new service' do you?
Actually, Big Guy, a review of your post doesnt back up your last statement.
I posted the above copy for your convenience.
It is a far cry in tone and intent than the following statement:
QuoteWell, Stephen. I said several pages back that's important to identify criticisms people have about the Riverside Trolley, so that they can be addressed in future transit projects, including the streetcar.
in fact, they almost seem to be diametrically opposed. In one you seem to say that future transit is doomed based on an imaginary failure of the bus route, and in the second you seem to be trying to claim that you just wanted to get some input for the future transit line.
Apples and oranges.
And you are still welcome.
Stephen, what I'm saying is. If we change nothing and just replace the Riverside Trolley with the proposed streetcar, then it probably won't do very well.
I do not want that to happen, because as a transit user, it needs to do well so that we can continue to develop transit projects in Jacksonville.
Therefore, my solution to ensure that the proposed Riverside streetcar does well, is to boost the Riverside Trolley. I feel if we can address the concerns people have about the Trolley, and get ridership on the Trolley up, than the streetcar has a much better chance of being the great success we need it to be.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 02:41:23 PM
Well I think its very commendable that you are saying that now.
You are right, Stephen. I did not support the Molibity Plan.
However, the plan was adopted.
I am not an anarchist. I am not a protestor.
Therefore, the only logical choice I have is to ensure the street car is a success.
Unfortunately, I believe the street car won't be successful if we sit idle these next few years. What do I base that on? ONLY my first hand experience riding the Riverside Trolley which duplicates much of the planned route.
I do concede that the streetcar will be more widely used than the trolley. However, if the trolley has low ridership, than the ceiling for streetcar use will be low.
Therefore, my 'plan of attack' is to get behind the Riverside Trolley and do everything I can to make it successful. Because the more successful the Trolley is now, the greater success the street car will be in the future
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 02:57:36 PM
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 02:47:08 PM
Unfortunately, I believe the street car won't be successful if we sit idle these next few years. What do I base that on? ONLY my first hand experience riding the Riverside Trolley which duplicates much of the planned route.
Thanks for finally expressing this. Frankly, its an opinion, not really based on anything other than a hunch and an observation.
Which is fine, its an honest basis for discussion.
My only point is to keep us grounded in reality, and not be expected to accept opinion as fact.
I can see why you would think this, but---having some experience in this process as well---I have a different opinion, and a few (hopefullly) valid facts to back up the opinion.
This is a process that happens in four dimensions, not only three.
And like planting a seed, the dna, not the size of the seed determines the outcome.
Bus transit in this city is unreliable and does not stay the same from year to year. Anyone who relocates based on a bus route is literally a fool with the JTA in charge. I got a good earful of this recently with all of the senior citizens who lived along Main Street when their knucklehead of a route planner decided to takes SPAR's advice and cancel all the bus routes along main.
Many of these very elderly people were suddenly trapped in their homes with little likelihood of being able to relocate and no way to stay mobile. The idiot responsible for this should be taken out and flogged by the grandchildren of his victims.
However when you build a trolley line, anyone can make plans to live without a car and securely relocate. The trolley lines arent going anywhere soon. So simply building the line changes the life choices of the people living in the area being served.
The obvious trick is to plan and build a line that actually connects two mutually compatible destinations.
Stephen, everything I've posted on MetroJacksonville, or any other forum, has always been my expressed opinion. That's what a message board is. It's a conversation between a group of people with varying ideas and opinions.
The reason why I live at 11 East is because most of the key bus routes stop at the corner of Main and Bay one block away. For those that don't, I can walk directly across the street to the stop at Ocean and Forsyth and be at the station in minutes.
I am sorry you have such a negative opinion of JTA, and I concede that others here share your negative view of it. I guess I should consdier myself fortunate, because in the year and a half I've relied on JTA I have only had one bad experience, and that related to the Skyway, not the bus service.
You can argue that a resident of Riverside who needs to get downtown will take the streetcar, whereas they might not be inclined to take the Riverisde Trolley as it stands now. That may be the case, the truth is neither of us will know until it is built and operational.
However, I still believe that people here have expressed valuable concerns regarding the Riverside Trolley. Concerns that if presented to JTA in the appropriate manner could be easily adopted. There's no negative drawback to boosting the Trolley. I wish you could get behind it.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 03:14:20 PM
The problem with the old WS1 route solely lies in the incompetence of the JTA, Big Guy. And that incompetence is pretty impressive. I know. Ive sat in and talked for many hours to the people that run the organization.
Mayor Alvin Brown may be able to totally turn the Titanic in the Water by good board appointments and serious dialogue with the agency, but if you want to have more support for bus service, you are simply going to have to have better bus service to support.
Could you be a bit more specific? I'm not sure what you're referring to when you call them incompetent. I'm not saying you're wrong or that I diagree, but I am saying I am not sure what you mean.
For a short starter streetcar line St. Vincents to Five Points seems like it would really do well at connecting people where they are to where they want to be. Walkable districts connected with lots of residents that if they use it likely won't need a car at the other end.
Quote from: acme54321 on May 27, 2011, 02:07:47 PM
I'll just say this. The only place I have ever regularly ridden as bus was in Gainesville. For 2 reasons. 1) It was free 2) It was resonably on schedule.
We went to San Fran and rode the streetcars everywhere. We never got on a bus and would have cabbed it before bus without a thought.
As a fellow Gator I have to point out the obvious; Everybody rides the bus in Gainesville because there is no viable parking on campus. If you have a red zone pass or even one of the better ones, you can spend an hour circling looking for a spot. After awhile, people just throw in the towel and realize the bus is a time-saver. But like you said, the bus service there is leaps and bounds above JTA. They run on time, the headways are 15 minutes or less, and you don't have to drive across town and change buses before finally going to your destination. Those are also reasons people use it and won't use JTA.
The most important issues are frequencies, the size of the service area, times of service, and reliability. Vehicle comfort is also very important.
Nearly anything that can be done with a steel wheel on a steel rail can also be done with a rubber tire on asphalt.
Either vehicle can be powered by electricity, gasoline, or diesel fuel.
Up to a higher level than one might think, neither vehicle has to be any larger or smaller than the other.
You can lock in a route by laying track for it to run on, but that lack of flexibility can cut both ways.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 02:04:37 PM
I like the subject line for this thread.
When I was in college in Philadelphia I rode many PTC trolleys, i.e. before SEPTA took over the PTC.
Dan I think you mean P.C.C. OR PCC cars. Our ackronym for the bus/trolley things is POTATO-CHIP-TRUCK (which is really what they are under the skin and why they ride like freaking freight wagons) anyway thus the PTC Trolley.
As for a PCT? Line em up bartender make mine Rebel Yell straight. QuoteA BRIEF STORY OF THE PCC STREETCAR (a decent history from a Bowser Model Company website)
The PCC Streetcar evolved from a committee, the Electric Railway Presidents Conference Committee (ERPCC), which met in the summer of 1929 to design a streetcar to compete with rubber-tired vehicles. At that time, the Presidents of various leading street railway concerns saw the “handwriting-on-the-wall†and got together to use genuine American know-how to develop a suitable competing product. City transit companies from larger cities such as Boston, Brooklyn, Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Saint Louis and Toronto, along with those of smaller cities such as Birmingham, Fort Worth, Honolulu, Houston, Knoxville, Louisville, Memphis, New Orleans, Newark, Oakland, Omaha, Richmond (VA) and Washington, D.C. plus interurban companies such as the Cincinnati & Lake Erie, Pacific Electric and the Philadelphia & Western, all joined together to form the ERPCC.
Naturally, any plans that the ERPCC had were affected by the Depression, which began in the fall of 1929. So the first model of the resultant car, now called the PCC car, did not emerge until 1936, when the first 100 cars went to Brooklyn, New York. Within the next few years, cars would go to Baltimore, Chicago, Pittsburgh, San Diego, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Toronto, and Cincinnati. Eventually most major U.S. cities acquired some of these cars. Eventually over 5000 PCC cars would be built in the United States and even more overseas. PCC cars produced would be of two generic types, the first known as the pre-war or air-electric PCC. These cars had a compressed air system that operated brakes, doors and windshield wipers.
Our model represents the post-war or all-electric PCC car, completely devoid of any compressed air system, produced from 1945 to 1952. Although the PCC car was billed as a standard single-ended 46’ long, 100†wide car, almost every property made changes that preclude one model from totally representing all the cars operated. There were eventually three different widths. Some cities, such as Chicago, had longer cars while Washington D.C. had shorter ones. There were differences in doors, door placement and roof lights. Two cities, Saint Louis and Kansas Car had car bodies unique to them. There were a few double-ended cars produced. While only two builders made PCC cars in the United states, Saint Louis Car Company and Pullman-Standard they are distinctly different from each other in appearance. More specifically, these cars are based on the 1948 series of PCC cars built by Saint Louis Car Company for the Philadelphia Transportation Company, which were extensively rebuilt during the early 1980s. Thirteen of these cars plus two of a previous order ended up being modified again and are used today in San Francisco.
http://www.bowser-trains.com/New_Products/New%2011-10-03%20Postwar%20PCC/New%2011-03-10%20Postwar%20PCC.htm
OCKLAWAHA
What about stimulating economic development? Rubber wheeled transit fails across the board when the vision and purpose of mass transit becomes holistic instead of tunnel focused. There was a reason no mobility plan money is going into rubber wheeled transit solutions. It simply doesn't lead to the urban environment wanted by the community and adopted by council (Planning Districts vision plans).
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2011, 04:48:48 PM
What about stimulating economic development? Rubber wheeled transit fails across the board when the vision and purpose of mass transit becomes holistic instead of tunnel focused. There was a reason no mobility plan money is going into rubber wheeled transit solutions. It simply doesn't lead to the urban environment wanted by the community and adopted by council (Planning Districts vision plans).
That's not the issue. No one is disputing that. The mobility plan was approved. Congrats.
The issue is that it'll take years for a streetcar. but the Riverside Trolley is here today, and just because there's a proposed streetcar in a few years, that doesn't mean we should ignore and stop improving what we have now.
I'm not sure why you're so negative about attempts to improve things now. I can't afford to just sit around and wait and hope for a streetcar to bring development in 5-10 years. I'm here now.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 03:24:50 PM
As a fellow Gator I have to point out the obvious; Everybody rides the bus in Gainesville because there is no viable parking on campus.
Eureka, he gets it!
Limiting and/or charging for parking increases transit use...now think about that when considering potential transit investments and parking policies.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2011, 04:48:48 PM
There was a reason no mobility plan money is going into rubber wheeled transit solutions.
So no Mobility Plan money for BRT? I hope not. Let JTA fund that debacle all by themselves.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 27, 2011, 04:43:43 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 02:04:37 PM
I like the subject line for this thread.
When I was in college in Philadelphia I rode many PTC trolleys, i.e. before SEPTA took over the PTC.
Dan I think you mean P.C.C. OR PCC cars.
OCKLAWAHA I rode Presidents Conference Committee (PCC) trolleys that were owned and operated by the Philadelphia Transportation Company (PTC).
I also know what a PCT is.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 05:39:10 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 27, 2011, 04:43:43 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 02:04:37 PM
I like the subject line for this thread.
When I was in college in Philadelphia I rode many PTC trolleys, i.e. before SEPTA took over the PTC.
Dan I think you mean P.C.C. OR PCC cars.
OCKLAWAHA
I rode Presidents Conference Committee (PCC) trolleys that were owned and operated by the Philadelphia Transportation Company (PTC).
I also know what a PCT is.
-gasp- Dashing Dan, are you really Uncle Ockie?!
-Josh
No, but I think we are both about the same age.
Quote from: wsansewjs on May 27, 2011, 05:45:37 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 05:39:10 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 27, 2011, 04:43:43 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 02:04:37 PM
I like the subject line for this thread.
When I was in college in Philadelphia I rode many PTC trolleys, i.e. before SEPTA took over the PTC.
Dan I think you mean P.C.C. OR PCC cars.
OCKLAWAHA
Somebody fixed the subject line for this thread (PTC to PCT), so my witty remark about PTC trolleys isn't funny anymore >:(
(http://www.heritagetrolley.org/TNERJTucson.htm)
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 02:35:39 PM
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 12:34:37 PM
Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 27, 2011, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2011, 12:19:31 PM
In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.
JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.
That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.
Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.
What on earth are you talking about?
The so called 'great service' you are talking about is just a bus. Its painted like a trolley, but its not a trolley and is still a bus service.
You do know that they are two different things right?
Like you don't think that if they used one of the painted buses to go to run the regency route that it would be a 'new service' do you?
Actually, Big Guy, a review of your post doesnt back up your last statement.
I posted the above copy for your convenience.
It is a far cry in tone and intent than the following statement:
QuoteWell, Stephen. I said several pages back that's important to identify criticisms people have about the Riverside Trolley, so that they can be addressed in future transit projects, including the streetcar.
in fact, they almost seem to be diametrically opposed. In one you seem to say that future transit is doomed based on an imaginary failure of the bus route, and in the second you seem to be trying to claim that you just wanted to get some input for the future transit line.
Apples and oranges.
And you are still welcome.
In Tuscon In Tucson, the first full month of operation, three times as many riders paid four times as much to ride half as far in the newly restored rail line than they would have paid to ride m a modern “trolley†bus.
A ride on the historic line costs one dollar while the SunTran shuttle bus fare is twenty-five cents. The trolley line is only one mile in length while the bus route is about two miles and connects more activity centers including downtown Tucson and the convention center. Further discouraging riders, the streetcar only runs three days a week while the bus runs six days.
Although the streetcar duplicates the university end of the bus route, operating hours are such that Saturday daytime is the only period during the week that the two modes directly compete. Current streetcar hours are Friday, 6 P.M. to midnight; Saturday, 10A.M. to midnight; and Sunday, noon to 6 P.M. The dressed-up buses operate Monday through Saturday, daytime only. The people prefer the streetcar.
http://www.heritagetrolley.org/TNERJTucson.htmIn New Orleans
This past January, the Federal Transit Administration signed an agreement with the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority for $45 million in federal economic stimulus funds to build a new, 1.5-mile streetcar line. It would link Canal Street with the Union Passenger Terminal, a 1954 structure that’s now home to the Amtrak and Greyhound stations (under one roof).
Skeptical New Orleanians wondered why. Of course, connecting to a regional transportation center was a sensible thing. But the line passed block after block of bleak, asphalt-savanna surface parking that flanks partially filled office towers. Why not route the new streetcar through communities that already had a denser residential population?
The answer came pretty quickly. Routing the streetcar through an underused part of the city, it turned out, was like adding water to sea monkeys. The blocks came to life almost immediately.
The Domain Companies, a developer specializing in mixed-use developments with projects in New York and Louisiana, announced that four of those empty blocks would soon give rise to some 450 new apartments and 125,000 square feet of retail and restaurants. Other projects also quickly took root in the area: An auto dealership would be converted into a much-needed downtown supermarket, and the 1,193-room Hyatt Regency New Orleans, which sits just north of the new streetcar line and has been empty since Hurricane Katrina, started getting a $243 million overhaul. The area even got a new name: the South Market District.
“What we felt made this site ideal,†Matt Schwartz, principal of Domain Companies, told The Times-Picayune, “was the streetcar expansion.â€
If all goes well, the South Market District will be a textbook example of how transit-oriented development (TOD) is supposed to work. Bring in transit, and builders of higher-density residential and retail will follow.
Yet listen carefully, and you can hear an echo in New Orleans. Because bringing TOD to New Orleans is a bit like telling Chicago about these tall buildings called skyscrapers. A popular bumper sticker here gets it right: “New Orleans: So Far Behind We’re Ahead.â€
The New Orleans experience also helps answer a common question among transit planners and cash-strapped municipalities: Why streetcars? Why not just expand bus routes? They’re cheaper, more flexible to route, and far quicker to implement.
The short answer: because where streetcars go, people follow. People simply like streetcars better than busesâ€"studies suggest that ridership typically increases by about one-third when streetcars replace a bus route. They’re smooth. There’s less lurching. And there’s less uncertainty about where they end up.
Developers like the permanence of streetcars. Nobody invests in a retail complex or apartment building because it’s near a bus stopâ€"that could move next week. But streetcar systems, which cost on the order of $40 million a mile, are viewed as longer lasting, certain to be around for at least a generation. You can put money on them.
There’s another reason that is perhaps underappreciated in policy circles: Streetcars have charm. The streetcars serving the St. Charles line today are chiefly 900-series Perley A. Thomas cars, built in High Point, N.C., in the early 1920s. Their distinctive look, feel, and sound have created a coterie of fans. The St. Charles streetcar is one of the few mass-transit systems to earn four-and-half stars on Yelpâ€"or get any attention at all, for that matter. The 74 reviewers enthuse about the cars as if they were an undiscovered diner.
“There’s something about the smell of streetcar wood that just takes you to another era, and I love feeling the breeze through the open windows,†wrote a visitor from San Francisco. Another from South Pasadena, Calif., wrote that this was “The first public transportation I didn’t hate.â€
And it’s not just starry-eyed Californians. New Orleanians love them, and the cars attract commuters as well as tourists. “It’s impossible to be unhappy when you’re on the St. Charles streetcar,†wrote a local resident. Another suggested qualified love: “Consistent in its inconsistency. Dangerous in a yesteryear fashion. But as distinctive and charming as some seasonal berry sorbet.â€
Darrin Nordahl is the city designer for Davenport, Iowa, and the author of My Kind of Transit. In that book, he takes a long look at American citiesâ€"particularly New Orleans, Seattle, San Francisco, and Pittsburghâ€"where visitors and residents alike have fought to keep their streetcars, cable cars, monorails, and funiculars operating. Nordahl writes that he had an epiphany in Hong Kong, while riding the funicular. “Public transportation here was not just a means to a destination, but a destination itself.â€
PAY ATTENTION JACKSONVILLE TRANSIT+ROLLING MUSEUM
Nordahl has read through a great many transit plans for cities large and small. All these plans focus on issues such as headway (timing between cars), geographic coverage, ridership, and “passenger miles traveled.†But not a single city plan has taken up the issue of what makes a trip truly enjoyable for passengers. As Nordahl writes, “The experience offered to the passengerâ€"the ‘fun-factor’â€"did not seem to weigh anywhere within transportation proposals.â€
He believes they should. “Once upon a time, traffic engineers told us how we should design a street,†Nordahl told me. So streets ended up being what one writer has referred to as “traffic sewersâ€â€"concrete sluices designed strictly for cars. That attitude has changed. “Now there’s this movement all across the country where we’re redesigning streetsâ€"they’re narrower, and travel is slower, but they’re very inviting and comfortable for pedestrians,†he said.
Much the same approach could be applied to transit, he suggested. Nordahl singles out the St. Charles streetcar as a good example. Like a narrow street full of intriguing storefronts, the streetcar has an almost baroque complexity of textures and materials: leather, steel, brass, mahogany, dangerously wide-open windows. (Compare this to the bus interiors of plastic with a few steel accents, and sealed windows, at times covered with billboard-sized advertising that permit only dim and blurry views of the outsideâ€"treating the customer like Spam in a highly decorated can.)
The St. Charles streetcar line is an exception in many ways. It’s listed on the National Register of Historic Places and is thus exempted from meeting a number of modern standards (such as handicapped accessibility; heat and air-conditioning; windows that open just a few inches). But it and other streetcars suggest that paying attention to the experience is not just an exercise in feel-goodism. It makes practical sense, in part by attracting “premium riders.†These are people who take public transit not because they lack other options, but because they choose to leave their cars behind. That’s a benefit for all, since it spreads the costs more widely, allows popular lines to underwrite routes in less popular or populated areas, and reduces the stigma of public transit. Everyone wins.
http://www.architectmagazine.com/planning/a-desire-named-streetcar.aspx
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 04:24:05 PM
The most important issues are frequencies, the size of the service area, times of service, and reliability. Vehicle comfort is a little less important, but not much.
Nearly anything that can be done with a steel wheel on a steel rail can also be done with a rubber tire on asphalt.
Either vehicle can be powered by electricity, gasoline, or diesel fuel.
Up to a higher level than one might think, neither vehicle has to be any larger or smaller than the other.
You can lock in a route by laying track for it to run on, but that lack of flexibility can cut both ways.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ezwNvGavgmI/Td_yXbX_t-I/AAAAAAAAFBI/PgtvRMbeg1Q/s640/STREETCAR-RIVER-LINE-CONRAIL.jpg)
Here is a good example of it cutting the OTHER way!
Quote from: wsansewjs on May 27, 2011, 05:45:37 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 05:39:10 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 27, 2011, 04:43:43 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 27, 2011, 02:04:37 PM
I like the subject line for this thread.
When I was in college in Philadelphia I rode many PTC trolleys, i.e. before SEPTA took over the PTC.
Dan I think you mean P.C.C. OR PCC cars.
OCKLAWAHA
I rode Presidents Conference Committee (PCC) trolleys that were owned and operated by the Philadelphia Transportation Company (PTC).
I also know what a PCT is.
-gasp- Dashing Dan, are you really Uncle Ockie?!
-Josh
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SA5Lc3TpP8Q/SyLNWW7weYI/AAAAAAAABjE/h060TWxrc_s/s800/lost%252520RTA%252520streetcars.jpg)
A PCC in a state of RIP
;D
Guys, come on, this is settled science when it comes to the benefits of intra-city rail.
There are definitely benefits, it's clearly worth doing.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-eUnw2Jz5T4o/TeBbN5eeYYI/AAAAAAAAFBc/ui8ue_Osmko/s800/WHITE-LINES-ON-THE-FREEWAY.JPG)
Ode to the BRT
It's midnight at the bus stop
And I drag myself in line.
Travellin' late, I got to go
But the bus won't be on time.
Everybody's looking half alive.
Later on the bus arrives.
They take my fare
I find a seat
And we move out through the lights.
Come on Driver, where's the heat?
It's cold out on this night.
I keep telling to myself that I don't care.
Come tomorrow, I'll be somewhere.
Take the bus downtown.
It's a dog of a way to get around.
Take the bus downtown.
It's a dog gone easy way to get you down.
Tired of watching this night go by
So I look across the aisle.
The window's frosted, I can't sleep
But the girl returns my smile.
I keep telling myself that I don't care
but tomorrow, will she be there?
I'm wrinkled on the bus bench at the transfer stop.
a stripper's getting cozy with JSO cop.
My coffee's tasting tired.
My eyes roll over dead.
Got to go outside and get the white lines out of my head.
Oh senorita, just to be in bed.
You got me driving.
I'm on your down town bus and you're driving.
But there's nothing new about buses downtown.
Nothing new about feeling down.
Nothing new about putting off
Or putting myself on.
Looking to tomorrow is the way the loser hides
I should have realized by now that all my life's a ride.
It's time to find some happy times and make myself some friends
I know there ain't no rainbows waiting when this journey ends.
Chasing the dragon off this dirty bus first time I understood
It's got to be the going not the getting there that's good
That's a thought for keeping if I could.
It's got to be the going not the getting there that's good
(http://www.mavericksonlineden.com/forwards/pictures/BritishNights/debate.jpg)
"traffic sewers" !! Absolutely! I will never look at Blanding, Beach, Atlantic, and Philips the same way again. The perfect meme.
Quote from: dougskiles on May 27, 2011, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2011, 04:48:48 PM
There was a reason no mobility plan money is going into rubber wheeled transit solutions.
So no Mobility Plan money for BRT? I hope not. Let JTA fund that debacle all by themselves.
Not a dime. However, mobility plan road widening projects for Philips and Southside should reduce BRT costs along those corridors if JTA chooses to coordinate with them.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2011, 04:48:48 PM
There was a reason no mobility plan money is going into rubber wheeled transit solutions.
What about people who need buses to get to work?
Are you saying:
That the mobility plan shouldn't serve them because buses aren't popular with members of the city council or the CPAC committees?
That they should wait and hope for a streetcar to come into their neighborhood? Or
That they should move out of their own neighborhoods in order to live closer to where the plan says that there may someday be a streetcar line?
None of the above Dan. The mobility plan gives us local funding and financing tool, but the key is LOCAL. The federal new-starts programs are generally stacked against rail. Years of highway lobby contributions to key members of Congress have assured this. Buses can get federal grants much more easily, grants JTA should be after.
Right now IMO we could use 10 inter-city type coaches for express longer-distance commuter runs. We are probably 100 buses short in the regular intra-city type buses. Lastly we could also use 10 or more articulated buses for heavy commute routes. The buses should be low floor, right hand AND LEFT HAND ENTRY'S /EXITS. Along with a commitment to new drivers and fare checkers should come a new pay BEFORE you enter system of ticket/card along with every Gate or similar station in town (and THEY should be able to earn pennies from each sale). Every single thing on my wish list could be gotten through the federal process... but rail? forget it.
OCKLAWAHA
If I were to answer my own question I would say that cities with rail service also have better bus service.
But I would also say that the mobility plan should have included funding for buses.
Wider roads are more dangerous for bus riders to cross.
also keep in mind that the mobility plan funds capital projects...lots of bus improvements would be operational in nature
as for the wide roads issue....in the case of roads like Philips Highway, they can be better....the vision is to convert a 4-lane rural-design to a 6 lane road with curbs, bike lanes, sidewalks, and median refuges for pedestrians.
Yes, urbanized improvements that will funded to widen corridors like Philips Highway and Southside Blvd will dramtically improve bus user saftey conditions along these highways as well as pave the way for potential TOD clusters around future commuter rail/BRT stations.
Dashing Dan, how familiar are you with the LRTP, Mobility Plan, etc.? In case you want to read up on it, here is a link: http://www.coj.net/Departments/Planning-and-Development/Community-Planning-Division/Mobility-Plan.aspx
I think that better understanding the purpose of the plan will actually help answer a lot of the comments and questions you've raised to date.
Here's the text of a letter that I wrote about the mobility plan.
May 18, 2011
Members of the 2011 Awards Jury,
At our meeting today, the board of the APA FL First Coast section has voted to strongly endorse the nomination of the City of Jacksonville Mobility Plan for a 2011 APA FL Chapter Best Practices Award.
The mobility plan represents a significant advance in the practice of growth management in Florida. It utilizes innovative approaches to achieve practical and feasible solutions to well known problems with Florida’s traditional concurrency based growth management system.
It is the product of an intensive technical effort undertaken by the staff of the City of Jacksonville planning department, under the leadership of Bill Killingsworth. The plan also reflects a significant outreach initiative that involved frequent public meetings of the City of Jacksonville Mobility Plan Task Force. This outreach initiative has greatly increased the likelihood that the plan will be adopted and implemented over the next few months.
Members of the board of the APA FL First Coast Section have had ample opportunity to become familiar the plan and to participate in its development. Our support for this nomination is based upon what we know and understand about this plan, as well as upon our support for the objectives that this plan is likely to achieve.
On behalf of the APA FL First Coast Section, I am proud to submit this letter of support. Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of any further assistance or if you require any additional information regarding our support for this nomination.
Very truly yours,
Chair, First Coast Section
APA FL Chapter
Quote from: stephendare on May 29, 2011, 09:20:37 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 29, 2011, 09:16:46 AM
So ignore these needs at the local level in the hope that they will be taken care of by the feds?
Is anyone ignoring these needs?
Outside of the JTA, there are very few leaders in this city who are aware of the needs of bus riders.
Isn't that obvious?
That's a nice letter Dashing Dan. The reason I asked about your familiarity with the plan was based on the questions and comments you've been making about certain projects within it. A skim through the executive summary and written report would help illustrate the goals of specific projects and why they were included. Believe it or not, they were seriously vetted and not plucked out of thin air.
Regarding improving bus/skyway operations, there are several improvements that can and should be implemented now without future mobility plan capital improvement money. We've covered a lot of them over the years and I'll post a link to them when I get access to a computer.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 30, 2011, 06:21:50 AM
Outside of the JTA, there are very few leaders in this city who are aware of the needs of bus riders.
Isn't that obvious?
INside of the JTA, there are very few who are aware of the needs of bus riders.OCKLAWAHA