Assorted Discussion about the Skyway and the PCT Trolleys

[BigGuy219]

Because I don't think you can replace the Riverside Trolley with a proposed streetcar or Skyway expansion, and automatically think they'll succeed where the trolley has not, jus because one is a "bus" and one is "not a bus."

hmm.  So where are you finding the data that the painted bus that runs the old WS1 route has 'failed'?

What do you base your comparison upon?

I base everything I say on first-hand experience and knowledge. I ride the trolley. I'd go as far to say that I rely on the trolley. But, there have been times when I have been on the Trolley from the Landing to the Five Points (and back again) and been the only passenger the entire time.

That is enough to tell me, based on nothing else, that not enough people are using it.

I want to know why they're not using it, because if we can identify the reasons, we can correct them in both the Trolley and future projects like the street car and have a much better service that everyone can utilize and enjoy.

[BigGuy219]

so youve ridden every trip of every riverside painted bus that runs the old WS1 route? (actually just half of it)

Tell me, big guy.  How does the newly painted bus routes numbers compare with the older bus routes numbers?

To the Five Points I have ridden the WS12, R5, P3, and P4. Possibly others, but those are ones I have used within the last several weeks.

On several occassions, there was barely a seat to be had. But I do not recall a time when any of these routes were as empty as the Riverside Trolley.

However, and I think is is worth noting, when I use these routes to go to Riverside, I rarely see anyone debarking before or in Riverside and am usually waiting at the bus stops in Riverside alone.

[BigGuy219]

The Route is almost exactly the same as the old WS1 route.

Except it doesnt go as far.

How do the numbers compare on this route to the ones before they substituted a newly painted bus?

Do you know?

No. I do not know.

I just know it is a great route. Covers everywhere I want to go on the Northbank. Runs a great timetable compared to other routes. And they look (and sound) great. More people should use it.

[JeffreyS]

It does not matter if you call them "transit snobs" or whatever fixed rail transit attracts riders that buses don't.  Bus stigma is real. The great thing is fixed rail will also grow the bus service around it.  Snobbery is one reason but their is a more important reason.  Developers like fixed rail because it is not flexible they can invest based on it with better assurance that the route won't change.  People planing their life where should I live, how will I get to work and where will I spend my free time if they want transit to be pert of that equation fixed is better for the same reason.  You buy or rent a place and then some new development off your route springs up and buses are rerouted.  We can go round and round about the logic but the truth is fixed rail attracts more riders and much more investment dollars.

[peestandingup]

yes.  It is just a bus.  It is not a new service, and in is not in any way similar to either the proposed trolley lines, nor the skyway.

Its interesting that your opinions about transit revolve around the straps and sound effects, but Im not sure how relevant such opinions are.

But why aren't people riding it? Because they're "transit snobs" who won't ride any bus, regardless of design?

Because buses are a crappy form of transit, period. You have to remember why we even have buses to begin with (they were part of a systematic dismantling of real viable transit by the auto/oil giants to benefit them, make public transit less attractive & so that we'd drive more). And thats not conspiracy theory shit either, its real.

[BigGuy219]

You don't know?

Then it sounds like you created a straw man out of your assumptions, Im afraid.

Lets dissect this.

You claimed as a fact that the JTA had launched a great new service that was a form of alternate transit.

In fact, it was exactly the same as the old service, but with a slightly different style of bus.

You then claimed that the 'new service' was a 'failure'

In fact, you have no idea whether the route is doing either better or worse than it ever has.

You then claimed that an actual transit mode change would 'fail' based on the imaginary failure of the 'new service' that is absolutely not a new service.

Can you explain this?

The argument has been made that a person who will not ride a bus, will ride a fixed rail transit system.

I do not accept that argument.

Therefore, I make the assertion that if a bus system is not performing well in an area, neither will a fixed rail transit system.

However, I think you're missing what I'm doing here. We've got years before this streetcar would be in operation. The Trolley is out there right now. I want the Trolley to succeed, and I think it's success would help the street car, skyway, or any other mode of transit eventually succeed. To that end, I am soliciting opinions on how to improve the trolley.

[ChriswUfGator]

You don't know?

Then it sounds like you created a straw man out of your assumptions, Im afraid.

Lets dissect this.

You claimed as a fact that the JTA had launched a great new service that was a form of alternate transit.

In fact, it was exactly the same as the old service, but with a slightly different style of bus.

You then claimed that the 'new service' was a 'failure'

In fact, you have no idea whether the route is doing either better or worse than it ever has.

You then claimed that an actual transit mode change would 'fail' based on the imaginary failure of the 'new service' that is absolutely not a new service.

Can you explain this?

The argument has been made that a person who will not ride a bus, will ride a fixed rail transit system.

I do not accept that argument.

Therefore, I make the assertion that if a bus system is not performing well in an area, neither will a fixed rail transit system.

However, I think you're missing what I'm doing here. We've got years before this streetcar would be in operation. The Trolley is out there right now. I want the Trolley to succeed, and I think it's success would help the street car, skyway, or any other mode of transit eventually succeed. To that end, I am soliciting opinions on how to improve the trolley.

Speaking personally, I won't ride a bus. But I would ride a streetcar or train.

I don't have 4 hours to waste on JTA's kafkaesque system trying to get anywhere. Neither does anyone else who has any kind of schedule they have to keep. JTA is simply a last-resort for people who have no other option. Meaning the family Golden Retriever became too old to ride on his back to Publix anymore to avoid taking the bus, and they tried riding a herpetic mule to work but it caught colic and died. Only then would most people realistically consider riding JTA buses.

A train runs on its own track on a fixed schedule, whooooole different animal.

[BigGuy219]

Speaking personally, I won't ride a bus. But I would ride a streetcar or train.

I don't have 4 hours to waste on JTA's kafkaesque system trying to get anywhere. Neither does anyone else who has any kind of schedule they have to keep. JTA is simply a last-resort for people who have no other option. Meaning the family Golden Retriever became too old to ride on his back to Publix anymore to avoid taking the bus, and they tried riding a herpetic mule to work but it caught colic and died. Only then would most people realistically consider riding JTA buses.

A train runs on its own track on a fixed schedule, whooooole different animal.

It has never taken me four hours to get anywhere riding JTA.

Each JTA route has a fixed schedule as well, and in my experience using the system, they usually run on time or no more than 5 minutes late.

Am I the only one on the forum who supports JTA?

[BigGuy219]

hmm.  You made a straw man argument.  Really thats all that you did at the end of the day.

Considering that it was completely factually wrong and partially fabricated, why should your opinion on transit other than your direct riding experience be taken seriously?

I mean, the only factual thing that I could take away from your posts so far is that some riders like the sound effects and buckles.

Also, during certain times of the day as presently scheduled, the bus only has one rider on it.

Other than that, it seems like a bunch of speculation and unfounded opinion.

I have posted nothing factually wrong or fabricated. I am sharing my opinions, views, and experiences on the transit system. I rely solely on JTA to get around the city. I utilize the system often, and I think my first hand experience as a rider should play a part in the discussion.

[BigGuy219]

1.  What is a 'fixed' schedule?

2.  What is a 'fixed' route?

3.  Can you explain how they are similar/different?

A 'fixed' schedule means the mode of transit will arrive at a set time.

A 'fixed' route means the route is set in stone because it has been constructed that way, such as a streetcar, train, or skyway.

[BigGuy219]

hmm.  You made a straw man argument.  Really thats all that you did at the end of the day.

Considering that it was completely factually wrong and partially fabricated, why should your opinion on transit other than your direct riding experience be taken seriously?

I mean, the only factual thing that I could take away from your posts so far is that some riders like the sound effects and buckles.

Also, during certain times of the day as presently scheduled, the bus only has one rider on it.

Other than that, it seems like a bunch of speculation and unfounded opinion.

I have posted nothing factually wrong or fabricated. I am sharing my opinions, views, and experiences on the transit system. I rely solely on JTA to get around the city. I utilize the system often, and I think my first hand experience as a rider should play a part in the discussion.

You literally just got through admitting that you posted information on something you didnt know anything about, and you were just confronted with a laundry list of the factual inaccuracies of your post.  If you cannot remember what you can literally read a few posts above, why would your opinion of transit comparisons be of any value?

I believe you can learn more about transit by using it, than you can by studying it.

Therefore I offer what I see in contrast to what you read.

[Dashing Dan]

Like Big Guy I also ride the Riverside Trolley on a regular basis.  It's essentially the same as a bus, but it's a lot less crowded.  I like riding it very much, but even I have a few minor gripes.

My #1 gripe is that it doesn't really go downtown.  The Landing would be an okay endpoint if there were connections there to other bus routes.  The Bay Street trolley runs so infrequently that it almost always makes more sense for me to walk about ten minutes from The Landing to my office on Forsyth Street.

#2 is that for work trips, 35 minutes can be a long time between buses trolleys.  In the middle of the day 12 minutes is probably too long for most people who might want to use it to go downtown or to Five Points for lunch.

#3 is that the JTA doesn't allow you to eat or drink on one of their vehicles.

A distant #4 gripe is the nearly incessant recorded announcements, about not eating drinking or smoking on the bus, about not using foul language on the bus, about the Jacksonville Journey, etc.  

On the plus side the buses and trolleys that I've ridden have all been clean and very reliable.  What's really neat is that at the other end from downtown, the Riverside Trolley has a stop located nearly at my back door.

It would also be nice if it ran later at night, more frequently on Saturdays, and on Sundays at all.

I know that there have been meetings between RAP and the JTA at the staff level, and that RAP is very interested in helping to promote the Riverside Trolley.

In my own view, and as I've stated before, I don't think there are many people who are bothered by the fact that the "trolleys" in this city are actually buses.  Even when buses are not the backbone of a transit system, they are nearly always the arms and the legs.  The more rail you have, the more buses you have too.

[BigGuy219]

Actually, a fixed schedule is one that does not change.

The JTA bus schedules and routes have been through twelve major changes in the past 3 years.  There is not a fixed schedule for any one of the buses.

I gave up my cars three years ago, spent 60+ days doing nothing except riding every route, every bus in order to report on the experience for metrojacksonville, big guy.  So while I appreciate your POV, once again you are making assumptions that are false.

I do not speak about JTA from the POV of someone who has only 'read' about it.  Nor do you have a greater amount of experience with actual JTA routes, buses and polices than I do.

Since that time, I completely stopped driving in order to live according to my own convictions about carbon footprinting.  In the course of my life and my daily job, I travel all over the city using transit whenever possible.

So once again, it sounds like you don't know much about this subject, despite the fact that you feel prudent to weigh in with factual sounding comparisons.

Wouldnt it be easier to simply ask instead?  Or I dunno.....maybe read the actual site first?

If you would read what I post instead of just jumping on me and bashing me at every turn, you'll see what all I've done in this thread is ask for people's opinions on how to improve the trolley.

Obviously some people saw that as Captain Zissou, Dashing Dan, and others have offered helpful, constructive criticism on how to improve the system. Despite your best efforts to once again derail the thread and turn it into another round of bickering between you and I.

[BigGuy219]

After reading the thread it looks like people would like to see the following...

1. During peak lunch hours increase the time between trolleys from 12 minutes to 7 minutes.
2. Increase the service hours past 7 o'clock on weeknights.
3. Increase the service hours past 8 o'clock on Saturday.
4. Make a direct link withe the Bay Street trolley and have the time table coordinate so that as the Riverside Trolley arrives, passengers can transfer immediately to a Bay Street Trolley that would leave immediately. And vice versa.

I have also proposed RAP and JTA combining for a town hall summit of sorts to get feedback from the community and answer questions.

I think these are all good points people have made.  Did I leave anything out?

Modified to add. I also think the Trolley scheduled should be posted at key locations throughout the route.

[Dashing Dan]

I like the subject line for this thread.  

When I was in college in Philadelphia I rode many PTC trolleys, i.e. before SEPTA took over the PTC.