Assorted Discussion about the Skyway and the PCT Trolleys

[Dashing Dan]

After reading the thread it looks like people would like to see the following...

1. During peak lunch hours increase the time between trolleys from 12 minutes to 7 minutes.
2. Increase the service hours past 7 o'clock on weeknights.
3. Increase the service hours past 8 o'clock on Saturday.
4. Make a direct link withe the Bay Street trolley and have the time table coordinate so that as the Riverside Trolley arrives, passengers can transfer immediately to a Bay Street Trolley that would leave immediately. And vice versa.

I have also proposed RAP and JTA combining for a town hall summit of sorts to get feedback from the community and answer questions.

I think these are all good points people have made.  Did I leave anything out?

Modified to add. I also think the Trolley scheduled should be posted at key locations throughout the route.

Bring back the Laura Ocean trolley. 

Increase the frequencies, on all trolleys at all times.

[acme54321]

I'll just say this.  The only place I have ever regularly ridden as bus was in Gainesville.  For 2 reasons.  1) It was free 2) It was resonably on schedule.

We went to San Fran and rode the streetcars everywhere.  We never got on a bus and would have cabbed it before bus without a thought.

[BigGuy219]

After reading the thread it looks like people would like to see the following...

1. During peak lunch hours increase the time between trolleys from 12 minutes to 7 minutes.
2. Increase the service hours past 7 o'clock on weeknights.
3. Increase the service hours past 8 o'clock on Saturday.
4. Make a direct link withe the Bay Street trolley and have the time table coordinate so that as the Riverside Trolley arrives, passengers can transfer immediately to a Bay Street Trolley that would leave immediately. And vice versa.

I have also proposed RAP and JTA combining for a town hall summit of sorts to get feedback from the community and answer questions.

I think these are all good points people have made.  Did I leave anything out?

Modified to add. I also think the Trolley scheduled should be posted at key locations throughout the route.

Hmm.  So it sounds like what you are describing is the frequency and reliability that is provided by a trolley line, Big Guy.  Nice Job.

Although I think that RAP should probably meet with an MJ sponsored panel.  After all we have been studying the issue for 6 years now.

Well, Stephen. I said several pages back that's important to identify criticisms people have about the Riverside Trolley, so that they can be addressed in future transit projects, including the streetcar.

However, by even the most optimistic assessments, such a streetcar is years away. Instead of sitting around waiting for a streetcar, I think there are things we can do to improve the Riverside Trolley in the coming weeks and months.

[BigGuy219]

In addition to the starter streetcar line connecting DT with Riverside, the commuter rail north line (DT to Airport eventually) is also a priority project of the recently adopted Mobility Plan. Bigguy, BRT and the commuter rail southeast project will eventually get you from DT to Southpoint.

JTA is doing everything they can to market the trolley, Lake. It goes over the proposed route of the street car, and beyond into Avondale and the Kent Campus. Yet, it's not the success they hoped it would be.

That's the primary reason I'm concerned about our first transit expansion being into an area that currently has been given what I consider a great service, and pretty much rejected it.

Since the street car is just our trolley, but on rails instead of wheels, I'm not sure that novelty effect will be enough to make it into a success. Same with a Skyway.

What on earth are you talking about?

The so called 'great service' you are talking about is just a bus.  Its painted like a trolley, but its not a trolley and is still a bus service.

You do know that they are two different things right?

Like you don't think that if they used one of the painted buses to go to run the regency route that it would be a 'new service' do you?

Actually, Big Guy, a review of your post doesnt back up your last statement.

I posted the above copy for your convenience.

It is a far cry in tone and intent than the following statement:

Well, Stephen. I said several pages back that's important to identify criticisms people have about the Riverside Trolley, so that they can be addressed in future transit projects, including the streetcar.

in fact, they almost seem to be diametrically opposed.  In one you seem to say that future transit is doomed based on an imaginary failure of the bus route, and in the second you seem to be trying to claim that you just wanted to get some input for the future transit line.

Apples and oranges.

And you are still welcome.

Stephen, what I'm saying is. If we change nothing and just replace the Riverside Trolley with the proposed streetcar, then it probably won't do very well.

I do not want that to happen, because as a transit user, it needs to do well so that we can continue to develop transit projects in Jacksonville.

Therefore, my solution to ensure that the proposed Riverside streetcar does well, is to boost the Riverside Trolley. I feel if we can address the concerns people have about the Trolley, and get ridership on the Trolley up, than the streetcar has a much better chance of being the great success we need it to be.

[BigGuy219]

Well I think its very commendable that you are saying that now.

You are right, Stephen. I did not support the Molibity Plan.

However, the plan was adopted.

I am not an anarchist. I am not a protestor.

Therefore, the only logical choice I have is to ensure the street car is a success.

Unfortunately, I believe the street car won't be successful if we sit idle these next few years. What do I base that on? ONLY my first hand experience riding the Riverside Trolley which duplicates much of the planned route.

I do concede that the streetcar will be more widely used than the trolley. However, if the trolley has low ridership, than the ceiling for streetcar use will be low.

Therefore, my 'plan of attack' is to get behind the Riverside Trolley and do everything I can to make it successful. Because the more successful the Trolley is now, the greater success the street car will be in the future

[BigGuy219]

Unfortunately, I believe the street car won't be successful if we sit idle these next few years. What do I base that on? ONLY my first hand experience riding the Riverside Trolley which duplicates much of the planned route.

Thanks for finally expressing this.  Frankly, its an opinion, not really based on anything other than a hunch and an observation.

Which is fine, its an honest basis for discussion.

My only point is to keep us grounded in reality, and not be expected to accept opinion as fact.

I can see why you would think this, but---having some experience in this process as well---I have a different opinion, and a few (hopefullly) valid facts to back up the opinion.

This is a process that happens in four dimensions, not only three.

And like planting a seed, the dna, not the size of the seed determines the outcome.

Bus transit in this city is unreliable and does not stay the same from year to year.  Anyone who relocates based on a bus route is literally a fool with the JTA in charge.  I got a good earful of this recently with all of the senior citizens who lived along Main Street when their knucklehead of a route planner decided to takes SPAR's advice and cancel all the bus routes along main.

Many of these very elderly people were suddenly trapped in their homes with little likelihood of being able to relocate and no way to stay mobile.  The idiot responsible for this should be taken out and flogged by the grandchildren of his victims.

However when you build a trolley line, anyone can make plans to live without a car and securely relocate.  The trolley lines arent going anywhere soon.  So simply building the line changes the life choices of the people living in the area being served.

The obvious trick is to plan and build a line that actually connects two mutually compatible destinations.

Stephen, everything I've posted on MetroJacksonville, or any other forum, has always been my expressed opinion. That's what a message board is. It's a conversation between a group of people with varying ideas and opinions.

The reason why I live at 11 East is because most of the key bus routes stop at the corner of Main and Bay one block away. For those that don't, I can walk directly across the street to the stop at Ocean and Forsyth and be at the station in minutes.

I am sorry you have such a negative opinion of JTA, and I concede that others here share your negative view of it. I guess I should consdier myself fortunate, because in the year and a half I've relied on JTA I have only had one bad experience, and that related to the Skyway, not the bus service.

You can argue that a resident of Riverside who needs to get downtown will take the streetcar, whereas they might not be inclined to take the Riverisde Trolley as it stands now. That may be the case, the truth is neither of us will know until it is built and operational.

However, I still believe that people here have expressed valuable concerns regarding the Riverside Trolley. Concerns that if presented to JTA in the appropriate manner could be easily adopted. There's no negative drawback to boosting the Trolley. I wish you could get behind it.

[BigGuy219]

The problem with the old WS1 route solely lies in the incompetence of the JTA, Big Guy.  And that incompetence is pretty impressive.  I know.  Ive sat in and talked for many hours to the people that run the organization.

Mayor Alvin Brown may be able to totally turn the Titanic in the Water by good board appointments and serious dialogue with the agency, but if you want to have more support for bus service, you are simply going to have to have better bus service to support.

Could you be a bit more specific? I'm not sure what you're referring to when you call them incompetent. I'm not saying you're wrong or that I diagree, but I am saying I am not sure what you mean.

[JeffreyS]

For a short starter streetcar line St. Vincents to Five Points seems like it would really do well at connecting people where they are to where they want to be.  Walkable districts connected with lots of residents that if they use it likely won't need a car at the other end.

[ChriswUfGator]

I'll just say this.  The only place I have ever regularly ridden as bus was in Gainesville.  For 2 reasons.  1) It was free 2) It was resonably on schedule.

We went to San Fran and rode the streetcars everywhere.  We never got on a bus and would have cabbed it before bus without a thought.

As a fellow Gator I have to point out the obvious; Everybody rides the bus in Gainesville because there is no viable parking on campus. If you have a red zone pass or even one of the better ones, you can spend an hour circling looking for a spot. After awhile, people just throw in the towel and realize the bus is a time-saver. But like you said, the bus service there is leaps and bounds above JTA. They run on time, the headways are 15 minutes or less, and you don't have to drive across town and change buses before finally going to your destination. Those are also reasons people use it and won't use JTA.

[Dashing Dan]

The most important issues are frequencies, the size of the service area, times of service, and reliability.  Vehicle comfort is also very important.

Nearly anything that can be done with a steel wheel on a steel rail can also be done with a rubber tire on asphalt.  

Either vehicle can be powered by electricity, gasoline, or diesel fuel.  

Up to a higher level than one might think, neither vehicle has to be any larger or smaller than the other.

You can lock in a route by laying track for it to run on, but that lack of flexibility can cut both ways.

[Ocklawaha]

I like the subject line for this thread.  

When I was in college in Philadelphia I rode many PTC trolleys, i.e. before SEPTA took over the PTC.

Dan I think you mean P.C.C. OR PCC cars. Our ackronym for the bus/trolley things is POTATO-CHIP-TRUCK (which is really what they are under the skin and why they ride like freaking freight wagons) anyway thus the PTC Trolley.

As for a PCT? Line em up bartender make mine Rebel Yell straight.  

A BRIEF STORY OF THE PCC STREETCAR (a decent history from a Bowser Model Company website)

The PCC Streetcar evolved from a committee, the Electric Railway Presidents Conference Committee (ERPCC), which met in the summer of 1929 to design a streetcar to compete with rubber-tired vehicles. At that time, the Presidents of various leading street railway concerns saw the “handwriting-on-the-wall” and got together to use genuine American know-how to develop a suitable competing product. City transit companies from larger cities such as Boston, Brooklyn, Chicago, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Saint Louis and Toronto, along with those of smaller cities such as Birmingham, Fort Worth, Honolulu, Houston, Knoxville, Louisville, Memphis, New Orleans, Newark, Oakland, Omaha, Richmond (VA) and Washington, D.C. plus interurban companies such as the Cincinnati & Lake Erie, Pacific Electric and the Philadelphia & Western, all joined together to form the ERPCC.

Naturally, any plans that the ERPCC had were affected by the Depression, which began in the fall of 1929. So the first model of the resultant car, now called the PCC car, did not emerge until 1936, when the first 100 cars went to Brooklyn, New York. Within the next few years, cars would go to Baltimore, Chicago, Pittsburgh, San Diego, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Toronto, and Cincinnati. Eventually most major U.S. cities acquired some of these cars. Eventually over 5000 PCC cars would be built in the United States and even more overseas. PCC cars produced would be of two generic types, the first known as the pre-war or air-electric PCC. These cars had a compressed air system that operated brakes, doors and windshield wipers.

Our model represents the post-war or all-electric PCC car, completely devoid of any compressed air system, produced from 1945 to 1952. Although the PCC car was billed as a standard single-ended 46’ long, 100” wide car, almost every property made changes that preclude one model from totally representing all the cars operated. There were eventually three different widths. Some cities, such as Chicago, had longer cars while Washington D.C. had shorter ones. There were differences in doors, door placement and roof lights. Two cities, Saint Louis and Kansas Car had car bodies unique to them. There were a few double-ended cars produced. While only two builders made PCC cars in the United states, Saint Louis Car Company and Pullman-Standard they are distinctly different from each other in appearance. More specifically, these cars are based on the 1948 series of PCC cars built by Saint Louis Car Company for the Philadelphia Transportation Company, which were extensively rebuilt during the early 1980s. Thirteen of these cars plus two of a previous order ended up being modified again and are used today in San Francisco.
http://www.bowser-trains.com/New_Products/New%2011-10-03%20Postwar%20PCC/New%2011-03-10%20Postwar%20PCC.htm

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

What about stimulating economic development?  Rubber wheeled transit fails across the board when the vision and purpose of mass transit becomes holistic instead of tunnel focused.  There was a reason no mobility plan money is going into rubber wheeled transit solutions.  It simply doesn't lead to the urban environment wanted by the community and adopted by council (Planning Districts vision plans).

[BigGuy219]

What about stimulating economic development?  Rubber wheeled transit fails across the board when the vision and purpose of mass transit becomes holistic instead of tunnel focused.  There was a reason no mobility plan money is going into rubber wheeled transit solutions.  It simply doesn't lead to the urban environment wanted by the community and adopted by council (Planning Districts vision plans).

That's not the issue. No one is disputing that. The mobility plan was approved. Congrats.

The issue is that it'll take years for a streetcar. but the Riverside Trolley is here today, and just because there's a proposed streetcar in a few years, that doesn't mean we should ignore and stop improving what we have now.

I'm not sure why you're so negative about attempts to improve things now. I can't afford to just sit around and wait and hope for a streetcar to bring development in 5-10 years. I'm here now.

[tufsu1]

As a fellow Gator I have to point out the obvious; Everybody rides the bus in Gainesville because there is no viable parking on campus.

Eureka, he gets it!

Limiting and/or charging for parking increases transit use...now think about that when considering potential transit investments and parking policies.

[dougskiles]

There was a reason no mobility plan money is going into rubber wheeled transit solutions.

So no Mobility Plan money for BRT?  I hope not.  Let JTA fund that debacle all by themselves.