Assorted Discussion about the Skyway and the PCT Trolleys

[stjr]

To follow up on my wonderment at the absence of definitive documents, numbers, calculations, precedents, or other specifics regarding any Federal reimbursement exposure to JTA (not the City of Jacksonville), I offer some comments on this week's T-U Skyway article (posted below following comments).
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The up and down (made-up?) number of the Federal reimbursement is now up to $90 million per JTA, from $50 to $70 million I recall hearing just a week or so ago (and I thought gas prices were rising fast   ).  Notably, the US DOT never cited a number and, given JTA's history of self serving disinformation, how can we believe anything they put out?

Based on the article's statement that the Feds paid 57 percent of $185 million to build it, the Fed's appear to have about $105 million invested.  So, after 20 plus years of operation, JTA is saying the Feds expect 86% of their original investment back?  Really?  Show me any other depreciable transit asset that depreciates at less than 1% per year.  If that wasn't enough to question the credibility of JTA's number, note the reference by US DOT to any reimbursement being only associated with a termination before the end of the Skyway's "useful life".  Did not one person think to find out what that might be?  Few structures are given useful lives over 40 years and that's usually due to the IRS wanting to drag out depreciation, not due to anyone actually accomplishing that in real life.  So, at 40 years even, the Skyway is over half way through its "useful life".  That should put any "penalty" at half or so of what is being bandied about, if that's even a real number.  

And, on the issue of an actual reimbursement, Mullaney is on to something with his questioning how aggressive the Feds would be in asking for money back.  No one here has yet produced a canceled check to the Feds for a give back on a mass transit project.  

Overall, the article's author appears to have NOT verified one single statement made for the article by checking documents and specifics.  Seems like the myths go on unchallenged once again.  Mica's statements seem mostly self serving for covering his "tracks" (no pun intended   ) so he doesn't look foolish supporting this monster.

Lastly, I am LOL at JTA's being "prepared to...demonstrate how important the Skyway is."  After 20 years, what's suddenly changed?  Lipstick on a pig. JTA then spouts the tired list of other never-coming mass transit projects that will finally show magically that the Skyway makes some kind of sense.  The Skyway was supposed to be a downtown people mover, not a vital link in commuter transit to the suburbs as they imply here.  This is another useless and smoke & mirrors  proposition that constitutes re-writing and ignoring history to sucker more money out of taxpayers for the Skyway.

By the way, note the footnote in the graphic stating that JTA's Skyway contributions of millions of dollars comes from JTA's "Bus Fund".  Now  you know why JTA can't find a few hundred thousand dollars for bus shelters used by tens of thousands of more riders than the Skyway has.  Misplaced priorities?

Overall, the tepid responses or outright rejection by the mayoral candidates validates my position that the Skyway is kryptonite in the hands of mass transit proponents.  If they want mass transit to thrive, they will have to jettison the kryptonite.

Mayoral candidates call for closing Jacksonville Skyway, but lack power to do it
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-03-08/story/mayoral-candidates-call-closing-jacksonville-skyway-lack-power-do-it

By Larry Hannan

Two candidates for Jacksonville mayor have indicated they'll look into shutting down the Skyway if elected.

There's one problem: The mayor doesn't have the authority to do it.

Mike Hogan and Rick Mullaney have advocated getting rid of the Skyway, or at least shutting it down, in recent campaign appearances. But the 2.5-mile downtown people-mover, long derided for not going anywhere, is controlled by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, not by City Hall.

Despite its name, JTA is a state agency that doesn't have to do what the city says. Money to operate the Skyway comes primarily from sales and gas tax revenue, federal funding and a small amount of fare money.

"It is true," said JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock, "that the city has nothing to do with the Skyway."

By almost any measure, the Skyway has been a disaster. When it was built 20 years ago, JTA promised 100,000 riders per month but, in 2010, ridership was a third of that.

The system is also a huge money-loser. In 2010, it cost $5 million to operate it, but fares and parking revenue generated only $500,000.

Shutting down the Skyway could also have other financial implications. JTA said it would have to reimburse the federal government around $90 million if the Skyway is torn down because it paid the majority of costs to build it.

Officials with the U.S. Department of Transportation confirmed that the federal government would seek reimbursement if the system was shut down before meeting the end of its "useful life."

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.

But that hasn't stopped Mullaney and Hogan from saying they want to get rid of it.

The Skyway is item No. 28 on Mullaney's 34-point plan. The plan says the Skyway is not working and costs millions of dollars each year.

Mullaney acknowledged that as mayor he would lack the authority to shut the Skyway down.

"But I don't really think that matters," Mullaney said. "The money JTA spends to operate the Skyway could be transferred to other areas of mass transit that people actually use."

If elected, Mullaney plans to meet with JTA officials and press for a moratorium, with the Skyway ceasing to operate for an undetermined amount of time.

"I want to take a step back and look at whether this will actually be useful," Mullaney said. "I think we can all agree that the way it is now doesn't work."

He doesn't want to tear the Skyway down and is open to it resuming operations sometime in the future when it is a better fit for the community.

The issue of having to pay back the government also needs to be addressed, but Mullaney doesn't believe the federal government would ask for the money back unless the tracks were actually torn down.

Hogan has said several times that he wants to get rid of the Skyway.

His staff e-mailed the Times-Union a three-sentence statement that said he's always been against the Skyway and believes the money spent funding it could be better used elsewhere.

Hogan did not respond to calls and e-mails asking how he'd shut it down, and whether he'd do it even if the federal government demanded reimbursement.

The other mayoral candidates aren't as determined to shut the Skyway down.

In fact, Audrey Moran wants to keep it open.

"I don't think it makes any sense to shut it down when you consider that we might have to pay $90 million to do it," Moran said. "We need to figure out a way to make it work."

The key is to redevelop downtown in a way that makes people want to come and ride the Skyway, she said.

Alvin Brown said he's neutral on it.

"Since the mayor doesn't control the Skyway," Brown said, "it makes more sense to push a combined vision."

As mayor, Brown would get together with JTA, downtown redevelopment groups, public officials like Mica and U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Fla., and private companies like CSX and ask what could be done to improve the Skyway.

Warren Lee said he'd look at ways to make the Skyway more viable.

"If there's no way to make it better, then we should shut it down," Lee said. "But that should only happen after we've looked at all the possibilities."

Lee said Mullaney and Hogan were irresponsible in calling for the shutdown of the Skyway when they lacked the ability to do it.

Moran agreed. "But to be fair," Moran said, "Skyway bashing has been a Jacksonville tradition for a long time."

The Skyway was built in the late 1980s for $185.7 million, with the federal government paying 57 percent of the cost, the state paying 20 percent, JTA paying 13 percent and the city paying 10 percent.

"We are prepared to work with the new mayor and will demonstrate how important the Skyway is," Blaylock said.

It's also not in JTA's interest to antagonize City Hall.

While the Skyway isn't funded by the city, JTA will soon be asking the mayor and City Council to extend the local 6-cent gas tax, which is scheduled to expire in 2016. The tax generates $30 million a year for JTA.

Blaylock said he is confident the next mayor will come to understand its importance.

JTA has plans to install bus-only lanes, is also looking at constructing a light rail, or trolley system, as well as building a commuter rail line from downtown Jacksonville to the suburbs. That system of transportation will feed into the Skyway, Blaylock said, increasing ridership and making the people-mover an essential part of the downtown renaissance.

Graphic below only reflects CASH losses, not total operating losses including depreciation.

[thelakelander]

Any idea on the cost paid to subsidize bus and PCT services on an annual basis?  The overall system has significant route duplication and I wonder how they compare and how these systems can be better integrated with the skyway to save operational costs on the overall system.  Once the skyway's operational life ends (btw, how long was it built to last?), I wonder if it would be possible to replace the monorail beam and skyway vehicles with tracks and streetcars.

[Ocklawaha]

So, after 20 plus years of operation, JTA is saying the Feds expect 86% of their original investment back?  Really? Show me any other depreciable transit asset that depreciates at less than 1% per year.

Rail infrastructure is typically rated between 50 and 100 years, with the track being at the 100 year mark.  

And, on the issue of an actual reimbursement, Mullaney is on to something with his questioning how aggressive the Feds would be in asking for money back.

Really? After Scott telling La Hood and Obama to take a flying leap, and JACKSONVILLE being "SCOTT CENTRAL?" Really? Rick and you are both dreaming if you don't think they'd love to make an example for Tallahassee to see. They were pretty damn aggressive at reassigning the money given to Wisconsin and Ohio too, letting them know if they misspent any of the monies they would be expected to repay it in full immediately.     

The Skyway was supposed to be a downtown people mover, not a vital link in commuter transit to the suburbs as they imply here.  This is another useless and smoke & mirrors  proposition that constitutes re-writing and ignoring history to sucker more money out of taxpayers for the Skyway.

Don't wet yourself over your emotional Skyway breakdown STJR... Good Lord, what the hell do you think a downtown people mover is if not a vital link in commuter transit to the suburbs? IE: I would board the Skyway downtown - Northbank and step off at the San Marco Commuter Rail Platform to continue south...

By the way, note the footnote in the graphic stating that JTA's Skyway contributions of millions of dollars comes from JTA's "Bus Fund".  Now  you know why JTA can't find a few hundred thousand dollars for bus shelters used by tens of thousands of more riders than the Skyway has.  Misplaced priorities?

No, perhaps because one of the main yardsticks applied to mass transit is passengers-per-mile-per-day, which makes the Skyway one of the best if not THE BEST route on the JTA system.

Overall, the tepid responses or outright rejection by the mayoral candidates validates my position that the Skyway is kryptonite in the hands of mass transit proponents.  If they want mass transit to thrive, they will have to jettison the kryptonite.

Not at all STJR, all it takes is a leader willing to get creative in making the Skyway part of a downtown experience rather then a somewhat detached elevated leviathan. Simple ideas could start the ball rolling from hot dog carts to tee-shirt sales and art displays, all of which would cause people to want to see what was in the next station.

Seems like the myths go on unchallenged once again.

Officials with the U.S. Department of Transportation confirmed that the federal government would seek reimbursement if the system was shut down before meeting the end of its "useful life."

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, said Jacksonville would struggle to get money for future public transit projects if it threw away the Skyway.

You go right on believing that we can get away with this crazy notion of yours, "Officials with the U.S. Department of Transportation confirmed... Seems to indicate either you are calling the author a liar or you didn't read the article.

Mica's statements seem mostly self serving for covering his "tracks" so he doesn't look foolish supporting this monster.

I seriously doubt that John Mica would say it any other way just to appease you, he happens to be a big supporter of getting it FINISHED! If you want to fuss about something why not ask how we get JTA to shit or get off the SKYWAY'S pot?

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, I respectfully read all your comments and agree with selected ones, particularly about having quality leadership and questioning the competency of JTA.  And, I respect your transit expertise.  But, I think you are too much in the weeds on much of this and are missing a bigger picture.  That's OK, no harm.  But, I believe you will be here 20 years from now making the same pronouncements unless you take a new tack.

It will be of more interest to see if the Feds make Florida return any of the seed money for the recently refused HSR.  If they don't collect it back, I would say that bodes well that the Skyway won't have much exposure from an abandonment after 20 to 30 years of operations.  Reassigning HSR or other transit money to other states from states that never accepted it isn't a reimbursement function, Ock.

The tracks may last 100 years but only after they have all but been replaced in position with "extreme makeovers" I would suggest.  I know a few years ago JTA seemed to have major issues with concrete cracks and/or metal fatigue.  Maybe you could refresh us on that.  And, then, when the "expansion" Phase II was done and they switched vendors,  I recall a major rework of the track system.  Am I wrong on that?  With overhauls like these, the tracks will last forever!  But, it won't be the original install.

A downtown people mover means to me moving people about downtown.  Not taking them on the first mile from a point downtown on the way home to the suburbs.  Hey, I didn't name it a "Downtown People Mover".  That's what they called it and said it was for.  I believed them for once.   

You are telling me the Skyway provides more service than the entire bus system?  Ock, I think you are manipulating statistics to suit your argument here - if there really is one.  I am focused on VALUE - overall UTILITY.  Not some isolated number that is irrelevant to the issue.

I didn't call anyone a liar, I just said the article lacked sufficient support, documentation, or fact checking to substantiate many of the implied or explicit claims made by "officials".  Draw your own conclusions.

You can dream on about the Skyway not holding back mass transit in Northeast Florida.  But, I believe you are living in a bubble.  By the way, kudos to Lake for standing up for mass transit in general on First Coast Connect this week.  I thought you did a great job articulating your points.  Ock, if you listened in (I didn't catch the whole show unfortunately), I heard quite a few callers thinking far different than many of us here do about mass transit.  This is the "wall of resistance" that I think you need to be paying attention to.

P.S. Lake, you should post the link to the audio on here and start building a multimedia library of MJ's "public" representations.

[Coolyfett]

Skyway hype threads are the COOLEST!! Glad they are upgrading to the card reader system.

[thelakelander]

Here is a link to the First Coast Connect discussion about HSR.  Its the Tuesday, March 8, 2011 mp3 link (fccmar0811.mp3):

http://www.wjct.org/first_coast_connect_podcast.xml

Btw, since the skyway brings in little fare box revenue, why not just make it free (aka. Miami Metromover)?

[Dapperdan]

I agree with making the fare free for now. Have they tried advertising? Instead of Central Station, it could be AT&T Central. There could be ads wrapped on the skyway itself.

[Garden guy]

Funding...everyone is complaining about funding and that he money is a subsidy....does anyone know how much money has been subsidized to the oil and gas industry? our gov. has spent billions and billions to subsidize billionairs and people start complaining when the subsidies are going to help the actual people with something that isn't going to just blow away in the wind like gas does....it just seems stupid to bitch about one thing but not another...

[buckethead]

Funding...everyone is complaining about funding and that he money is a subsidy....does anyone know how much money has been subsidized to the oil and gas industry? our gov. has spent billions and billions to subsidize billionairs and people start complaining when the subsidies are going to help the actual people with something that isn't going to just blow away in the wind like gas does....it just seems stupid to bitch about one thing but not another...

Got any sources?

[Captain Zissou]

A downtown people mover means to me moving people about downtown.  Not taking them on the first mile from a point downtown on the way home to the suburbs.  Hey, I didn't name it a "Downtown People Mover".  That's what they called it and said it was for.  I believed them for once.

What I find funny is that your model of what the skyway should be would cause it to be a worse failure than it is now.  For it to be effective in your model, people would have to constantly be leaving one downtown building and riding it to another like a bunch of ants.  That may have worked in the 60's, but not today.  Generally, people arrive at work in the morning, maybe leave the office once a day to get lunch, but that's it.  For this type of usage, Ock's model is the only one that makes sense.  Since you'll only get 2-4 rides at most out of somebody in the day, make it part of their journey to their office from their home in the burbs.

You are telling me the Skyway provides more service than the entire bus system?  Ock, I think you are manipulating statistics to suit your argument here - if there really is one.  I am focused on VALUE - overall UTILITY.  Not some isolated number that is irrelevant to the issue.

I think riders per mile per day is the most important statistic, period.  How else can you measure transit success?? I guess I can address how you totally misinterpreted Ock's point, but he'll probably to that later.

[Bativac]

I agree with making the fare free for now. Have they tried advertising? Instead of Central Station, it could be AT&T Central. There could be ads wrapped on the skyway itself.

Are you suggesting that the City of Jacksonville allow advertising to sully the pristine surfaces of the Skyway?

I think the city should eliminate fares for the Skyway, advertise the Skyway (especially around Jags games or ArtWalk), and pursue advertisers. The first two would come first, and once ridership is up, you have an audience that marketers might be interested in.

I don't think tearing it down is a good idea. I mean, how many cities have a monorail downtown? We have that and the river and yet Jacksonville still can't figure out how to make downtown attractive to people?

[Garden guy]

Would'nt it be cool to take the skyway from downtown..through the middle of the river out to mandrin maybe....boy that would cost a big penny...but the ride would be awesome.

[Captain Zissou]

You are telling me the Skyway provides more service than the entire bus system?  Ock, I think you are manipulating statistics to suit your argument here - if there really is one.  I am focused on VALUE - overall UTILITY.  Not some isolated number that is irrelevant to the issue.

I think riders per mile per day is the most important statistic, period.  How else can you measure transit success?? I guess I can address how you totally misinterpreted Ock's point, but he'll probably to that later.

Since we don't (to my knowledge) have varying rates for different bus routes, passengers per mile per day could also be read as revenue per mile per day..  Think, if 10 people ride from NAS Jax to downtown, each paying a single fare, what would that revenue per passenger per mile be??  At the same time, what if those same 10 people rode from the Southbank to the Northbank??  The revenue per passenger per mile would be considerably higher.  Since vehicle operating costs aren't incurred on a per rider (rather per mile) basis, this means that revenue compared to operating cost for the skyway is much higher on a per mile basis.  This makes a strong argument for continuing and expanding the skyway system.

Ock, any way you could get operation cost figures per mile for a bus and a skyway vehicle??  Based on my previous argument, I feel like we could determine the revenue difference on a per mile basis between skyway and bus.  Then, from that we could determine the required useful life and revenue requirements to justify expansion of the system.

[Jdog]

If Union Station were used vigorously as a regional transit center, IMHO, the utility of the Skyway could become quite substantial. 

[stjr]

About this thread's missing posts:  Unfortunately, as the thread initiator, I accidentally deleted this thread while accessing it from a smartphone touchscreen by hitting the "nuclear option" "REMOVE THREAD" button MJ had perilously positioned close to the page numbers at the bottom of thread.  (I didn't even know I had that button until I realized I had subliminally absorbed its title when touching the screen and then confirmed it by bringing up another thread I started and seeing it in the same spot.)

Lunican has dutifully done his best to restore the thread but it appears no posts since March 10, 2011 were retrievable.  (Lunican advises MJ has removed the "nuclear option" button now.) When I get a moment, I will re-post the NY Times article if I can find it that I posted over the weekend and we can rebuild the conversation going forward.

Thanks again, Lunican.