Black Sheep Restaurant Group Planning New Restaurant for 5 Points

[tayana42]

Dear Westsider,
Your suggestion that we need to ride our bikes to 5 Points is one I admire.  Some of the establishments in 5 Points that cater to a young crowd do have patrons who arrive by bicycle.  But let's be realistic: how many customers of Orsay or Chew or the new proposed restaurant do you think now ride, or will ride their bikes to the restaurant for dinner?  I submit the answer is:  none. 

And wasn't the previous development proposal for this site denied for similar reasons?
Why the sudden support for this development?  Orsay is a neighborhood favorite and deservedly so, but they must be treated equally under the law.
Thanks for listening.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Dear Westsider,
Your suggestion that we need to ride our bikes to 5 Points is one I admire.  Some of the establishments in 5 Points that cater to a young crowd do have patrons who arrive by bicycle.  But let's be realistic: how many customers of Orsay or Chew or the new proposed restaurant do you think now ride, or will ride their bikes to the restaurant for dinner?  I submit the answer is:  none. 

And wasn't the previous development proposal for this site denied for similar reasons?
Why the sudden support for this development?  Orsay is a neighborhood favorite and deservedly so, but they must be treated equally under the law.
Thanks for listening.

You're so very right.  I almost feel that I should apologize for suggesting such ridiculousness.  I am assuming from your tone, you believe the only people who frequent Chew and Orsay are old or never learned how to ride a bike or possibly unable to walk. 

I have a suggestion - Horse-Drawn Carriages with complimentary champagne, not the bubbly swill, but the real mc’coy from that region in France that escapes me at the moment.   They shall call to make a reservation at the new restaurant, ( because of course it’s being opened only for them, the patrons of only Orsay and Chew) and a gallant, white steed shall arrive at their home, pulling a majestic carriage. (I suppose it would have to have AC for the stifling summer heat and probably a canopy of some sort for the sudden Florida rain-showers)  This steed, we’ll call him Charlie….  Charlie will whisk the couple away for a magical dinner at restaurant unnamed, and they will sing of it’s praises.

I’m  spitballing here, but maybe the restaurant unnamed is being built & designed for the people who frequent 5 points?  You know, the young crowd who may not mind riding their bikes to go eat.  Possibly the office level will be occupied by some of these dastardly , young people with their entrepreneurial spirit, bicycles and fresh ideas.  Maybe it’s even possible, I dare to say it, that the residential units might be occupied by the business owners who work downstairs who go to the rooftop bar upstairs to relax after work, then go back to their condos downstairs and do it again the next day.  UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!  I’m sure that no one has thought of this yet, especially the patrons of Chew and Orsay, and most especially whoever is trying to develop the property. 

The support for this development and others like it is coming from those of us who work our asses off.  It’s coming from those of us who are tired of seeing this city go down the shitter because everyone is so afraid to make the correct choice over the politically correct choice.  It’s coming from those of us who don’t sit behind a parking spot with our blinker on for 5 minutes because we’re too lazy to walk 4 extra spaces.  Support like this comes when it’s warranted.  It only takes the right idea, and everyone will back it up, and we’re tired of wrong ideas and bad planning and social agendas  and what everyone else wants for us.  This is what we want and this is the support you get when others want what you do!

FIN

[Brian Siebenschuh]

Somewhat off-topic, but relevant to a point made in Westsider's post, and really just a moderately poignant statement on parking lot politics...

I found myself in one of those awkward "do you want that spot?" face offs at the Roosevelt Publix earlier today.  The spot was on the side which would have allowed me to easily nose in, but a full-size pickup carrying a couple people seemed to really want it, even though they were facing the wrong direction.  I drove five spots further, pulled in, climbed out of the Jeep, walked past them, and was INSIDE THE STORE (yes, I turned around to check on their progress, since it seemed as I walked past that the pilot was having some trouble backing the awkwardly large vehicle into the spot) before they were even able to park...

And it's been mentioned before, but the whole ground floor level of 1661 Riverside is public parking.  And it's always empty.

[simms3]

One more dichotomy we currently face:

During the weekday many professionals wear suits or dress up at least a little for work, and as long as we don't have air conditioned trains/trolleys (which are hard to keep air conditioned anyway in the dead of summer), if they are going to patronize 5 points or any other commercial zone, they will be in a car.  The good news is that during lunch four or five people will travel in one car.

It's easy to limit parking or to designate "denser" zones car-free zones during certain hours, but enforcers of such policies will only take away the business lunch crowd and if these same lunch patrons aren't there seeing the area or spending money during the weekday, they may not be there at other times either (like on the weekend or weeknights).

If a city like Atlanta, which has the best public transportation in the south, still builds places to be reached by car (and also by train if close to a station), then we, having no form of real public transportation, cannot get away from including parking.  There is a whole lot of underperforming asphalt on the East side of 5 points, and without looking up who the owners are, perhaps the best solution is to build a decent sized garage and then make things walkable from there, but there ultimately will need to be a place for cars.  The city of Decatur just a few miles east of Atlanta has a few garages and then people can walk from place to place.  Parking is easy and often free (the garages are city-owned and taken at a loss I think).

[simms3]

And it's been mentioned before, but the whole ground floor level of 1661 Riverside is public parking.  And it's always empty.

And I digress...though if Riverside picks up a lot more, hopefully we'll face the positive problem of that not being enough parking!

[grimss]

Although I like the idea of the design. I really need to understand this bldg in relation to Mossfire. This bldg looks out of scale with the rest of the block. And although we see one side clearly I wonder what is on the other 2 sides of the triangular bldg.

It's my understanding that in the photo below, the small building on the far left is Mossfire, so that gives you some sense of the scale of the proposed building.

[tufsu1]

More pressure for parking is greater pressure for mass transit.
STOP building for CARS!

exactly!

[thirdeye]

Dear Westsider,
Your suggestion that we need to ride our bikes to 5 Points is one I admire.  Some of the establishments in 5 Points that cater to a young crowd do have patrons who arrive by bicycle.  But let's be realistic: how many customers of Orsay or Chew or the new proposed restaurant do you think now ride, or will ride their bikes to the restaurant for dinner?  I submit the answer is:  none.  

And wasn't the previous development proposal for this site denied for similar reasons?
Why the sudden support for this development?  Orsay is a neighborhood favorite and deservedly so, but they must be treated equally under the law.
Thanks for listening.

Tayana,

So you believe that the Fuel building and the other vacant spaces in 5 points should remain vacant also?
As they can not provide parking.
Most restaurants, retail and bars in Avondale, Five points, Downtown and San Marco can not provide the parking they are required.
Most if not all get some sort of parking exception/variance.

So you would prefer one of the most unique areas in Jacksonville to have it's growth stunted because of parking issues?

The Black Sheep group is adding as much parking as they can and the parking they will provide, undoubtedly will be used by patrons for all of the businesses in the area.

FYI: The previous developer is the same guy that ran Panera out of his building on Hendricks and has rubbed RAP and many others the wrong way. He wanted to put a Dunkin Donuts drive thru in the building. HE also had issues with RAP over a house he owned in the historical district.

[nestliving]

Although I like the idea of the design. I really need to understand this bldg in relation to Mossfire. This bldg looks out of scale with the rest of the block. And although we see one side clearly I wonder what is on the other 2 sides of the triangular bldg.

I guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?

It's my understanding that in the photo below, the small building on the far left is Mossfire, so that gives you some sense of the scale of the proposed building.

[fieldafm]

I have a suggestion - Horse-Drawn Carriages with complimentary champagne, not the bubbly swill, but the real mc’coy from that region in France that escapes me at the moment.   They shall call to make a reservation at the new restaurant, ( because of course it’s being opened only for them, the patrons of only Orsay and Chew) and a gallant, white steed shall arrive at their home, pulling a majestic carriage. (I suppose it would have to have AC for the stifling summer heat and probably a canopy of some sort for the sudden Florida rain-showers)  This steed, we’ll call him Charlie….  Charlie will whisk the couple away for a magical dinner at restaurant unnamed, and they will sing of it’s praises.

LOL, its been a long week and that was pretty funny.  Thanks 

And it's been mentioned before, but the whole ground floor level of 1661 Riverside is public parking.  And it's always empty

Really?  Wow, I did NOT know that.  Thank you!

I guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?

It's my understanding that in the photo below, the small building on the far left is Mossfire, so that gives you some sense of the scale of the proposed building.

Off topic, but nestliving.... really cool work on the interior of the new salon in five points!!!

[grimss]

I guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?

Valid point, but 1661 is set back from the lot line whereas this design, as presently conceived, is right up against the sidewalk and is immediately adjacent to Mossfire.  1661 sits in splendid isolation on its block.

[Captain Zissou]

The RAP article stresses how tall this building is.  It's 3 stories with a small utility area on a 4th floor.  The utility area will barely be noticeable from the ground.  The whole front is glass and it narrows to a point on one end.  This will have the footprint of a Ford F-350. 

I too have concern about the materials they are going to use, but as far as the massing goes I'm fine.

[acme54321]

And it's been mentioned before, but the whole ground floor level of 1661 Riverside is public parking.  And it's always empty.

Really?  Thats good to know.  I always assumed it was for residents/patrons of that building only.

[tufsu1]

as to the massing/size question....1661 is 5 stories and sits across the street from one-story shops...so who cares if this building is 3-4 stories and next to the 2-story Mossfire?

[cline]

I guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?

Valid point, but 1661 is set back from the lot line whereas this design, as presently conceived, is right up against the sidewalk and is immediately adjacent to Mossfire.  1661 sits in splendid isolation on its block.

Actually, the ground floor retail in 1661 is not set back from the lot line, it is adjacent to the sidewalk similar to the layout of this proposed building.