Twisted Martini closing at The Jacksonville Landing

[Captain Zissou]

So, people just don't understand how amazing it is?

I would say... Yes.  As an out of towner, PeeJay doesn't know the history of the Landing or whatever ownership groups have run it in the past.  All he sees is the potential.

Chris, what is the point of your argument??  What is your recommendation??  Do you want the city to tear down the Landing?  Are you just being disagreeable?

[wsansewjs]

Speaking of the family feud, the Peyton family should be BANNED from running any political positions in the city of Jacksonville. Their influence on Jacksonville is too much already, and having a position in the government is already over the board.

Let me hit my favorite conspiracy theory: The Peyton Family owns Gate Petroleum, Co. Their strong influence in Jacksonville is to maintain market in cars and convenience.

What is the best way to keep that market going and always make money?
PREVENT PUBLIC TRANSIT FROM PROSPERITY.

The JTA is governed by a seven member Board of Directors. The mayor of Jacksonville appoints three Board members who must be confirmed by the Jacksonville City Council; the Florida Governor appoints three members who must be confirmed by the Florida Senate. Each member serves a four-year, unpaid term and can be re-appointed for a second term. From its membership, the Board elects its own Chairman, Vice Chairman, Secretary and Treasurer for one year terms. The seventh member is the District Two Secretary from the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) who serves as long as s/he are employed in the position. That individual is responsible for the FDOT activities within the 18 counties of the district, including administrative, planning and operations.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_Transportation_Authority#Governance



-Josh

[PeeJayEss]

Then why is it largely vacant?

Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?

Why does it always lose money?

So, people just don't understand how amazing it is?

Damn those customers, it must be their fault.

Not sure how you got all these questions from that statement I made (or how you took issue with it at all...wait: Did the Landing run over your dog or something?), but I guess I'd have to answer your questions with a question:

Can the Landing be "not half bad" while being "largely vacant," having all its tenants "continually go out of business" (not sure how that's even possible), and losing money? Yea, sure. My opinion of the experience of the Landing doesn't have to depend on the profitability of the businesses therein or the occupancy of the space, though according to you my opinion is wrong because I failed to consider these matters.  "Not half bad" is not the strongest endorsement, though I guess you read it as me saying "how amazing it is" so I can understand your confusion.

[Captain Zissou]

Let me hit my favorite conspiracy theory: The Peyton Family owns Gate Petroleum, Co. Their strong influence in Jacksonville is to maintain market in cars and convenience.

Dude that's not a conspiracy theory.  That is fact.

Ask Stephen's permission to access the Jacksonville Wikipedia page.  It's probably on there.

[ChriswUfGator]

But it should be WAY better than what it is. The problems I've discussed here are indeed problems

Agree totally. Its well short of its potential, but its not half bad even now.

Then why is almost completely vacant? Why do all the tenants continually go out of business? Why does it lose money? People just don't understand how amazing it is? Really?

Are you claiming that the Landing failed because one nightclub had bad service?

The Landing has been the biggest victim of Downtown Policies for the past 20 years.

Since Sleiman took over, he has been repeatedly and deliberately frakked by the Peyton Administration.

Its hard to keep any business open when all roads connecting to your business are either closed or only leading away from it.

Yet this is exactly the situation that Sleiman has had for the past 4 years.

Not a single merchant at the Landing had anything to do with that.

Banana Republic is doing just fine out at Town Center, after all.

The place does need an update.  Even Toney agrees with that.

But everytime he has configured a new plan, the Peyton Administration found a way to frak him on the deal.  Whether it was building his own garage, reconfiguring the access to the river, buying a parking lot nearby or just out and out fraking with the front of the building.

Imagine how much power the city has when they can just go in, rip up all adjoining streets, relabel all the parking spaces 'handicapped', go onto the grounds of the shopping mall, literally take the statuary away and put it in a roundabout, while taking their good sweet time about it.

I don't agree with Toney's politics, but what Peyton did to him in the name of the family feud has been inexcusable.

Well, in case anyone missed it;

Realistically, the only way out at this point is to shut it down, do a total renovation and build the requisite new parking to sign chain retailers, sign the new retailers and restaurants, and then re-open it with a publicity blitz as the "new" Landing. Maybe even change the name. It's gotten to the point now where nobody from here will go there, except the few diehards who go because they see what it could be but isn't. For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.

In the meantime, Sleiman could sponsor some entertainment acts or something to draw people there, that would probably help. As it sits, and he must know this, there is absolutely no reason to go there. I can go to a sketchy convenience store a lot closer to my house. And I can even use my credit card.

and;

from what I can tell, a little less than 200.

The Landing is around 125,000 sqaure feet...so using generic suburban suburban parking ratios of 4-5 spaces per 1000 square feet of retail, the Landing would "need" at least 600 spaces (400 more).

That said, how many street spaces are within a block of the center?  How many spaces are in the lots across the street that are advertised on nights/weekends as parking for the Landing?

One of the best things about downtowns is how parking for office workers during the day can be used by those going to dinner, theaters, stadiums, etc. at night and on weekends...this is exactly what happens with the TUPAC, Florida Theatre, etc.

And I saw it first hand in the early 1990's in Baltimore when the Orioles moved downtown and skeptics worried about a lack of parking...the team sold out every game for several years and folks parked in garages and lots nearby...and guess what....they walked to/from the stadium and brought street life to the area!

Except that's only on weekends. During the week, regardless of the severe glut of parking downtown, COJ tickets the $h!t out of anyone using street parking during normal hours. Which is kind of a buzz-kill when you are running a business that depends on customer flow being steady for more than 2 days a week.

Parking policies need to be revisited, if you are going to deny the Landing its garage. The parking situation has been an issue for the Landing from the beginning. Yes, there is plenty of parking. No, you can't use it, unless you 1) Remembered to bring quarters (who carries change anymore?), then 2: Are 100% sure you'll be back in exactly XX amount of minutes or else enjoy your nice ticket, or else 3: Want to pay out the ass and enrich Mark Rimmer to park in one of his 1,000 space garages that might have 3 other cars in it on a good day. Not that this, of course, will stop you from paying out the ass anyway, since his empty garages have their operating losses subsidized by the taxpayers.

Or, back in reality-land, people immediately realize this is ridiculous and everybody will just continue going to one of the other dozen Hooters restaurants and getting their $10 burger without a $15 side of parking ticket and a charitable contribution to Mark Rimmer. Just like they do now.

It's time to revisit downtown parking policies.

I see your reply has identified the very same problems I had already pointed out as being the prime causes, so we are obviously in agreement on what the issues have been. What I do not appreciate, and my point in this thread, are the 1 or 2 usual suspects who, for whatever reason, cannot resist fellating everyone with claims of how a dying mall that's mostly vacant and can't keep a tenant besides for Hooters is, apparently, the most amazing thing since sex despite all evidence to the contrary.

Including one whose business at the Landing just went under, and another one who is the chief champion of the parking policies that have been its chief weakness. I'm simply pointing out that, for some odd reason, despite this small handful of people pointing out how unbelievably awesome it is, the place has been a flop. This seems like a discrepancy that deserves some explanation, no?

And generally, I'm sick of hearing everyone gloss over downtown's problems. The problems are there, they're real, and it will never become what we all want it to be until we address them. Continuing to B.S. each other about whether there is a problem at all only forestalls solving it.

[PeeJayEss]

Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.

And regarding your claim that it's bad management, that's ludicrous. The Landing has been failing for two decades, and Sleiman is only the most recent manager at the helm. Prior to him, Rouse Co. and General Growth, two of the largest mall operators in the country, and two operators whose similar urban-center projects in other cities have been great successes (for christsake's Rouse originally developed Faneuil Hall in Boston...they literally invented this concept) tried to make a go of it and failed.

So, what's the deal then, given your view? People just don't understand how awesome it is?  

I based my statement off the understanding I have from this forum that part of the reason Starbucks left and part of the reason Martini closed down may have been due to their dealing with the management*. That it why I said (I think quite reasonably) that it "may have more to do with management than market." That doesn't discount the effect of the market, just that one thing may have had a more significant effect. May. I don't make arguments in over-the-top absolutes, as you prefer.

To your last question, I would say "Yes!" If you can go have a drink at night on the riverfront, with boats going by, live music playing in the background, and lights all around, and you don't think its at least a little cool, then what is? I think you've decided (possibly very long ago) that it was decidedly un-awesome and have since set out proving that to yourself, rather than enjoying what is actually there. This is just conjecture, of course.

*edit: I should point out that I have no idea if this is actually true or not. I'd hate to get a response that was predicated solely on me getting this point wrong (even though I qualified it up and down already).

[tufsu1]

Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?

perhaps we can try to stick with facts

Fact - cookie place has been there since Day 1
Fact - 9 West store has been there a long time
Fact - Sundrez has also been there a long time (and expanded)
Fact - since I moved here 5+ years ago the following courtyard restaurants have stayed the same:
         Hooters, Vinos, Bennys, Koja Sushi place, American Cafe  

[ChriswUfGator]

Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?

perhaps we can try to stick with facts

Fact - cookie place has been there since Day 1
Fact - 9 West store has been there a long time
Fact - Sundrez has also been there a long time (and expanded)
Fact - since I moved here 5+ years ago the following courtyard restaurants have stayed the same:
         Hooters, Vinos, Bennys, Koja Sushi place, American Cafe  

Ok, well then riddle me this; How many leaseable storefronts are contained in the Landing?

Secondly, your "facts" are wrong on at least one count, Koja replaced a Fat Tuesday that was the original tenant. I suspect from memory, but am not 100% sure, that several others on your list are not original tenants either.  I have lived in the area for 30 years, and used to come to the Landing regularly when I was a kid. I am speaking from personal experience.

Edited to add: Nevermind, I see you are qualifying it by saying "5 Years." In mall retail, that's an exceptionally short lifetime. And, regardless, if you want to point to a half-dozen places in the entire complex that have been able to last 5 years, then we really should put this in perspective. So I'll ask again; How many leasable storefronts, food court bays, are contained in the Landing?

[tufsu1]

off-hand around 25 downstairs...plus 12 on the river/courtyard...and then Mavericks and Food Court upstairs

and no Chris..my facts are not wrong...I said Koja Sushi (and the other courtyard places I mentioned) had been there since I moved here in April 2006...please show me how that is false

[edjax]

Reading this thread is  more fun than watching a boxing match!!  And I might add...even more hits below the belt.

[ChriswUfGator]

off-hand around 25 downstairs...plus 12 on the river/courtyard...and then Mavericks and Food Court upstairs

and no Chris..my facts are not wrong...I said Koja Sushi (and the other courtyard places I mentioned) had been there since I moved here in April 2006...please show me how that is false

I saw you said "5 years" sorry about that, I misread. I corrected my post for you.

But as to the rest, again, do you know a firm number for how many total leasable spaces are available on Landing property? I am trying to find a list of the original tenants, but am not having much luck.

[PeeJayEss]

Ok, well then riddle me this; How many leaseable storefronts are contained in the Landing?

Most of the vacancy is in the mall, correct? Given that there are not that many people downtown, is it safe to say that it is not quite ready for a shopping destination? I don't know all the history, but did someone in "management" at some point think that building a mall (with apparently mid-upscale stores originally?) in a place without many people was a good idea? When a bad plan fails, is it the market's fault?

As an entertainment destination, again, its "not half bad."

In mall retail, that's an exceptionally short lifetime.

What is the typical expected lifetime of mall retail?

[ChriswUfGator]

Ok, so the figure is 40 stores, plus food court / restaurant spaces, and plus a bunch of booths they can put out in the public areas. But we'll stick with actual retail storefronts, which numbers 40, so given the 17 tenants reflected on the landing's website, that would equal a 58.5% vacancy rate, no?

http://jacksonville.about.com/od/shoppingservices/tp/Jacksonville-Malls.htm

http://www.jacksonvillelanding.com/shopping

Again, if everything is so peachy, why a 60% vacancy rate?

And yes, to answer PJ's question, the vacancies are largely in the mall.

[fieldafm]

The Landing has been the biggest victim of Downtown Policies for the past 20 years.

Since Sleiman took over, he has been repeatedly and deliberately frakked by the Peyton Administration.

Its hard to keep any business open when all roads connecting to your business are either closed or only leading away from it.

Yet this is exactly the situation that Sleiman has had for the past 4 years.

Not a single merchant at the Landing had anything to do with that.

Banana Republic is doing just fine out at Town Center, after all.

The place does need an update.  Even Toney agrees with that.

But everytime he has configured a new plan, the Peyton Administration found a way to frak him on the deal.  Whether it was building his own garage, reconfiguring the access to the river, buying a parking lot nearby or just out and out fraking with the front of the building.

Imagine how much power the city has when they can just go in, rip up all adjoining streets, relabel all the parking spaces 'handicapped', go onto the grounds of the shopping mall, literally take the statuary away and put it in a roundabout, while taking their good sweet time about it.

I don't agree with Toney's politics, but what Peyton did to him in the name of the family feud has been inexcusable.

Sweet Jesus, reason has entered the discussion.

[ChriswUfGator]

Oh, and to answer your other question, it is generally thought the average viable lifespan of a mall retail development is around 20 years, assuming no subsequent redevelopment etc. Some make it longer, some less. It's very common to see 20+ year old malls with most of the original tenants still there, so having every major tenant except 3 turn over in the span of a short time really isn't a good sign of the Landing's health.