Amendment 4

[north miami]

Impact fees, DCA, land use plans, growth management, water management districts, concurrency, zoning, planning commissions, etc. - all tools to manage growth that have failed to deliver as promised. 

while this may be true, care to imagine what Florida would look like without these rules?

Indeed tufsu1.

And the Florida Growth Management network has certainly provided untold billing hours for the Consultant industry.

Beyond that,calls for DCA sunset in favor of more stand alone 'Regional' efforts and staff changes (as per C.Gauthier) are of concern and always prevalent.

Few know that here in Florida,amidst "Growth Management" backdrop current future 'growth' envisions many more millions in population than present today.
Already,what we see is not what we are going to get.
In fact,certain promotions and "Growth Management" profile has contributed to a sense of complacency among the public.
And although public participation in the process,including the all important FLUM (future Land Use Map) is a key feature of Growth management by Rule,many citizens are unaware of the process and prone towards a sense of futility,for good reason.
The only "inevitable" thing about 'growth' will be emerging inherent limits to expansion that will defy stated preference;both social and primarily economic.

On another#4 note- now word is the opponents stepped up a high $$$ campaign in response to news that proponents had a big $$$ war chest.The complete opposite is true,proponents hardly equal in funding.
The well funded opposition effort was a predicted given.
Perhaps the word that proponents had a big war chest was by diabolical design on behalf of opponents.Tid bits like this will prove telling for a long time.

[CS Foltz]

Impact fees, DCA, land use plans, growth management, water management districts, concurrency, zoning, planning commissions, etc. - all tools to manage growth that have failed to deliver as promised. 

while this may be true, care to imagine what Florida would look like without these rules?

Looking at what we have right now, I have to say that the rules are not doing a whole heck of a lot!

[tufsu1]

well CS...prior to growth management, Florida got places like Lehigh Acres, Cape Coral, and Rotunda....that was 40+ years ago....check Google for aerial views of those places today!

[ChriswUfGator]

and no...comprehensive plan (or comp. plan) is not short for comprehenvive land use plan...which should be obvious given that land use is only one element of the plan!

And yes, that's exactly what's it's short for. You're a planner and you're actually arguing this?

and you're showing how little you know about planning/growth management in Florida.

but let's assume you are correct....if comprehensive plan and comprehensive future land use plan are synonymous, wouldn't that mean Amendment 4 is subjecting the entire plan to public referendum if there was a proposed change?

Here's the City of Jacksonville plan

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Planning+and+Development/Community+Planning/Comprehensive+Plan/2030+Comprehensive+Plan.htm

Do you really want to go to the polls for every text change to this document?

Well yes, that is exactly what amendment 4 is supposed to accomplish. But I'm not sure that comprehensive land use plans were intended to be amended constantly in order to pander to developers. That's kind of the whole point here, isn't it?

Whether or not it is the most elegant solution is certainly up for debate. What would you suggest? People are sick of the status quo. Something should be done. What would you suggest?

[cline]

and no...comprehensive plan (or comp. plan) is not short for comprehenvive land use plan...which should be obvious given that land use is only one element of the plan!

And yes, that's exactly what's it's short for. You're a planner and you're actually arguing this?

and you're showing how little you know about planning/growth management in Florida.

but let's assume you are correct....if comprehensive plan and comprehensive future land use plan are synonymous, wouldn't that mean Amendment 4 is subjecting the entire plan to public referendum if there was a proposed change?

Here's the City of Jacksonville plan

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Planning+and+Development/Community+Planning/Comprehensive+Plan/2030+Comprehensive+Plan.htm

Do you really want to go to the polls for every text change to this document?

Well yes, that is exactly what amendment 4 is supposed to accomplish. But I'm not sure that comprehensive land use plans were intended to be amended constantly in order to pander to developers. That's kind of the whole point here, isn't it?

Whether or not it is the most elegant solution is certainly up for debate. What would you suggest? People are sick of the status quo. Something should be done. What would you suggest?

Great question.  I'm not sure what the solution should be.  The current system is obviously broken and ripe for a complete overhaul.  However, the proposed solution (Amendment 4) is overkill.  There must be some sort of middle ground.  The problem is that we have a system that can is easily manipulated by those with money.  As I mentioned earlier, that would be developers and builders.  City councilman, county commissioners et. al. owe those that "contribute" to their campaign- even if it conflicts with what their constiutency wants.  It doesn't matter what staff planners for local governments recommends when their hands are basically tied by their council or commission members (i.e. their employers).  But I don't know what the answer is to this.  Perhaps we need to focus on electing those that will stand up for what will benefit their consituency as a whole rather than those few that attend a fundraiser.  Unfortunately, politicians can only see as far as the next election.

[Clem1029]

Not that I've made up my mind on Amendment 4, but surely there's a better line of argument in support than:

Something needs to be done.
Amendment 4 is something.
Therefore, Amendment 4 needs to be done.

Right? I mean, that train of thought is extremely less than persuasive.

[cline]

Not that I've made up my mind on Amendment 4, but surely there's a better line of argument in support than:

Something needs to be done.
Amendment 4 is something.
Therefore, Amendment 4 needs to be done.

Right? I mean, that train of thought is extremely less than persuasive.

It is less than persuasive but unfortunately, it is the situation we find ourselves in right now.  The really unfortunate part is that the planning/growth management community has known about Amendment 4 (in some form or fashion) for many years now and has failed to put forth any better solution.  The Citizens Bill or Rights was the only thing and that was killed/watered down to nothing by politicos (lobbyist's for developers) in no time.  I heard Sec. Pelham (DCA) make that point just recently.

[Dog Walker]

Rick Scott says that he will abolish the Department of Community Affairs if he is elected governor.

[ChriswUfGator]

Not that I've made up my mind on Amendment 4, but surely there's a better line of argument in support than:

Something needs to be done.
Amendment 4 is something.
Therefore, Amendment 4 needs to be done.

Right? I mean, that train of thought is extremely less than persuasive.

Pretty much sums it up.

But I'm still voting for it. I'd prefer that logic to Nocatee any day.

[tufsu1]

But I'm still voting for it. I'd prefer that logic to Nocatee any day.

you do realize that Duval County residents wouldn't be able to vote on Nocatee anyway....unless you count the samll portion that is in Duval?

[Clem1029]

Yikes...y'all just made me flash back to my policy debate judging days - any position that uses that as it's only supporting argument is an automatic loss.

[CS Foltz]

you do realize that Duval County residents wouldn't be able to vote on Nocatee anyway....unless you count the samll portion that is in Duval?

I do tufsu..............so it would seem that a county would have to have the voters blessing inorder to do something like Nocatee in Duval County...........or within the county that the project is slated to be within? The problem with this is what? Amendment 4 is statewide, but county focused.........this is not a problem that I can see!

[tufsu1]

The problem with this is what? Amendment 4 is statewide, but county focused.........this is not a problem that I can see!

nope...not County focused....jurisdiction focused....Duval only has a few because of consolidation, but Pinellas has 28 and Broward has around 50

[simms3]

Part of the problem with Atlanta's current planning and transit issues stems from the fact that the various local jurisdictions in the inner counties and the different counties themselves can't agree on anything.  That is part of the reason that led to MARTA now having a seat at the table under the general umbrella of the MPO.  If Tufsu is correct, then an MPO could essentially be powerless to local small jurisdictions.  Any "regional" plan will be killed and "regional" transit plans may also be killed (well I guess the state government can enforce emminent domain in the latter case right?).

Putting more power in the hands of citizens when it comes to planning will probably be worse than leaving the planning in the hands of bought off politicians.

[ChriswUfGator]

Putting more power in the hands of citizens when it comes to planning will probably be worse than leaving the planning in the hands of bought off politicians.

Well, yes, but the second half of that question is "worse for who"?