Amendment 4

[buckethead]

Dog Walker...........I tend to agree with you! Obvious what we have now is not doing the job, concurrency is not evenly applied and more often or not, not in the effected area so I am thinking time for something to take place! Let the voters have their say and lets move on! Developers will just love it right?

Actually, for rural developers, they might just love it - especially if cool commercials showing the neat amenities there are shown.  If Nocatee was put to the vote, it would be approved by a huge margin.  The houses in Nocatee aren't being bought up by magical beings, they are being bought by the "Average American Family" with 2.5 kids who want their kids to go to a brand new school near their house with new teachers and who also represents a gigantic voting block. 

Are you saying these people aren't clamoring to move into Springfield?

We need to limit their alternatives and force them to live where we se fit.

[British Shoe Company]

Money wasted from both sides of this issue.  The only winners are the Advertising Firms, and Sign Makers.

Most voters does not understand the issue, which is sad.

[CS Foltz]

Money wasted from both sides of this issue.  The only winners are the Advertising Firms, and Sign Makers.

Most voters does not understand the issue, which is sad.

But what about the ones who do? With voter turnout being as little as it is, last primary is a good example.............about 21% of all registered voters on both sides of the aisle, whatever takes place will be based on those that vote! I am voting and allways do, plus I am informed. Might be the exception to the rule, but everyone needs to do their part adn this is how I do mine. I am voting for Amendment 4 since I think it is past time to reign in developers and bought politicians.........it is not perfect but I see what has taken place so far and want some change now!

[British Shoe Company]

Money wasted from both sides of this issue.  The only winners are the Advertising Firms, and Sign Makers.

Most voters does not understand the issue, which is sad.

But what about the ones who do? With voter turnout being as little as it is, last primary is a good example.............about 21% of all registered voters on both sides of the aisle, whatever takes place will be based on those that vote! I am voting and allways do, plus I am informed. Might be the exception to the rule, but everyone needs to do their part adn this is how I do mine. I am voting for Amendment 4 since I think it is past time to reign in developers and bought politicians.........it is not perfect but I see what has taken place so far and want some change now!

You sound informed, and it's good that you vote.  
If it does pass, how much would you estimate the costs to have a referendum for each FLUM change request?  
Is the Government ready to take on that price?  
I know the Advertising, and Sign Makers are voting YES!

[cityimrov]

Dog Walker...........I tend to agree with you! Obvious what we have now is not doing the job, concurrency is not evenly applied and more often or not, not in the effected area so I am thinking time for something to take place! Let the voters have their say and lets move on! Developers will just love it right?

Actually, for rural developers, they might just love it - especially if cool commercials showing the neat amenities there are shown.  If Nocatee was put to the vote, it would be approved by a huge margin.  The houses in Nocatee aren't being bought up by magical beings, they are being bought by the "Average American Family" with 2.5 kids who want their kids to go to a brand new school near their house with new teachers and who also represents a gigantic voting block.  

Are you saying these people aren't clamoring to move into Springfield?

We need to limit their alternatives and force them to live where we se fit.

Actually, most average people I find tend to think of Springfield as a drug infested rundown old neighborhood away from amenities commonly found in places like Eagle Harbor.  

I remember taking a tour of some type and something caused us to stop in the middle of Springfield on our way to another destination.  These were mostly average people and pretty much everyone huddled close together with a fear of getting shot, robbed, or mugged.

[British Shoe Company]

John Wayne would vote "NO".

See  the movie "Big Jake"!!!!!

I am voting with the Duke!

The Duke would say "Dog" if you think having an election for every NOPC to the FLUM is smart.

Elections cost money, and we pay the Board of Commissioners.

Do we need both???

Vote "NO" to #4!

[Dog Walker]

"Mr. Clark" (BSC), We have elections a couple of times a year already and there is no reason that the referendums for land use changes could not be concurrent with those elections.

The cost of holding those elections in any case would be much lower than the cost to provide roads and utilities to the sprawl developments that Amendment 4 is trying to control.

[ChriswUfGator]

Amendment 4 looks to be a tool to get the legislature to finally act on urban sprawl.  If it passes, it likely won't stay in its current form for long without modification (if the consequences are a fraction of what detractors claim), but upon such modification, we should end up with something both workable and better than what we have now - which is nothing.

If Amendment 4 fails, what's to keep the status quo of unbridled growth from continuing?  The legislature will not address urban sprawl unless given a mandate to do so.  Amendment 4 could serve that purpose.  I actually think politicos secretly like these amendments because it can empower them to do things they otherwise would avoid like the plague.

It's unfortunate that citizen initiatives are required to make the legislature do its job.  I again cite the class size amendment used to get funding for education as an example.  It will now be tweaked but we will be better off with it than without.  Seems to me, as imperfect as Amendment 4 could be, it would serve the same purpose.

If that is really what Amendment 4 is about, that's playing with fire at the gas station.  It's a highly risky maneuver.  At least with the class size amendment, they have time to figure out something that will work due to the gradual class scaling.  With Amendment 4, there is no time - its implemented as soon as it get's voted on!  Every second a new counter-amendment isn't created is everyday an uncertainty is created - either no development, mass development to a scale we haven't seen before, or random development where we have no clue what will happen (we might as well turn development to the lotto!)

Next is the voters.  The new class size amendment has no guarantee it will pass.  We could be stuck with the old amendment no matter what the cost.  The same could be true if Amendment 4 passes.   In addition to that, there has been a history of voters not wanting to give up power once they have it.   Especially to an elected representative.  It's going to be much tougher to turnover Amendment 4 once it passes and replace it with something better then it would be without it and vote on the better plan in the first place.

I see your point but this is a very risky a maneuver to get what you want.

What's risky is the pattern of development that has been undertaken in this state over the past 30 years. It's downright foolish, and costs the taxpayers far more (probably for a single road or "bridge to nowhere") than any of the alleged costs being associated with this amendment. Developers will adjust. The prime quality in any successful business is the ability to adapt to changing circumstances. Those who don't, fail.

If you expect me, or any other voter, to apologize to the developers simply because they may have to work a little harder for their copious financial rewards, then you're somewhat misguided. If the voters have their say, that's all there is to it. People who don't like it can move to another state. People are sick of sprawl.

[north miami]

Many assume that the carefully crafted,and routinely updated county FLUM (Future Land Use Map) is there to be substantially revised at whim.After all,that has been the case.
Nocatee carefully stuck it's toe in the FLUM waters and found conditions very comfortable-ushering in a tidal wave by others.As one brief example.

FLUM can be pesky in part because it is in part a product of the citizens,no matter how manipulated towards general predetermined boundary and "consensus".

Amendment 4 discussions reveal most citizens are not aware public participation in FLUM is a matter of Florida Growth Management rule.

[tufsu1]

It took almost 5 years for Nocatee to get through the local approval, state oversight, and challenge process.....hardly what I would call calm waters

[Dog Walker]

It took almost 5 years for Nocatee to get through the local approval, state oversight, and challenge process.....hardly what I would call calm waters

And after all that time and effort, they STILL couldn't get it right.

[cline]

Amendment 4 looks to be a tool to get the legislature to finally act on urban sprawl.  If it passes, it likely won't stay in its current form for long without modification (if the consequences are a fraction of what detractors claim), but upon such modification, we should end up with something both workable and better than what we have now - which is nothing.

If Amendment 4 fails, what's to keep the status quo of unbridled growth from continuing?  The legislature will not address urban sprawl unless given a mandate to do so.  Amendment 4 could serve that purpose.  I actually think politicos secretly like these amendments because it can empower them to do things they otherwise would avoid like the plague.

It's unfortunate that citizen initiatives are required to make the legislature do its job.  I again cite the class size amendment used to get funding for education as an example.  It will now be tweaked but we will be better off with it than without.  Seems to me, as imperfect as Amendment 4 could be, it would serve the same purpose.

If that is really what Amendment 4 is about, that's playing with fire at the gas station.  It's a highly risky maneuver.  At least with the class size amendment, they have time to figure out something that will work due to the gradual class scaling.  With Amendment 4, there is no time - its implemented as soon as it get's voted on!  Every second a new counter-amendment isn't created is everyday an uncertainty is created - either no development, mass development to a scale we haven't seen before, or random development where we have no clue what will happen (we might as well turn development to the lotto!)

Next is the voters.  The new class size amendment has no guarantee it will pass.  We could be stuck with the old amendment no matter what the cost.  The same could be true if Amendment 4 passes.   In addition to that, there has been a history of voters not wanting to give up power once they have it.   Especially to an elected representative.  It's going to be much tougher to turnover Amendment 4 once it passes and replace it with something better then it would be without it and vote on the better plan in the first place.

I see your point but this is a very risky a maneuver to get what you want.

What's risky is the pattern of development that has been undertaken in this state over the past 30 years. It's downright foolish, and costs the taxpayers far more (probably for a single road or "bridge to nowhere") than any of the alleged costs being associated with this amendment. Developers will adjust. The prime quality in any successful business is the ability to adapt to changing circumstances. Those who don't, fail.

If you expect me, or any other voter, to apologize to the developers simply because they may have to work a little harder for their copious financial rewards, then you're somewhat misguided. If the voters have their say, that's all there is to it. People who don't like it can move to another state. People are sick of sprawl.

What makes you think Amendment 4 will be the end to sprawl?  What if there is a large contingent of voters that would vote in favor of the next Nocatee, Fleming Island etc?  Pretty much every special interest group will now have a field day and the ones with the most money will succeed.  In Florida, that would be the developers.

[Dog Walker]

What makes you think Amendment 4 will be the end to sprawl.  What if there is a large contingent of voters that would vote in favor of the next Nocateek, Fleming Island etc?

Then at least the process would in the open, not done by back room deals by people with special access to the green room behind the City Council chambers.

[cline]

What makes you think Amendment 4 will be the end to sprawl.  What if there is a large contingent of voters that would vote in favor of the next Nocateek, Fleming Island etc?

Then at least the process would in the open, not done by back room deals by people with special access to the green room behind the City Council chambers.

Well at least then we could be proud of our sprawl, right?  Since it was created on the up and up.

[ChriswUfGator]

What makes you think Amendment 4 will be the end to sprawl.  What if there is a large contingent of voters that would vote in favor of the next Nocateek, Fleming Island etc?

Then at least the process would in the open, not done by back room deals by people with special access to the green room behind the City Council chambers.

Well at least then we could be proud of our sprawl, right?  Since it was created on the up and up.

I think you may be overestimating floridians' appetite for continued destructive development patterns.