Carling, 11 East Bleeding Money: developer asks city for more help

[mtraininjax]

So fix the parking first at the Landing? And they will come?

[thelakelander]

Fix the parking and renovate the building and they will.  Its a great site and location.  Its really downtown's public square.  Problems and all, it still attracts more visitors than any other place in DT.  Unfortunately, ever since it opened two decades ago, its had a fundamental design problem (parking) that has limited its viability.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Doubt it. Our residents dont see downtown as a place to visit unless its a holiday and its time to watch fire works.

[stjr]

Unfortunately, the current situation has dual-sided responsibility.  This is yet another example in a continuous line of failures for our city government.  At the time of the initial venture to add housing in this area, there should have been a push for everything else to go with it as well.  I'm sure the city thought adding these residents would be enough by itself to create a vibrant downtown.  However, intelligent city planners with a vision and a plan know that the residents themselves are not enough.  They could have chosen the Laura/Adams Street area to make a push for other amenities as well.  Our current development plan in Jax is to scatter some money here and then I guess they just pray, instead of finishing the job before moving on!  I also blame the marketing dept. and management of Vestcor for not being proactive and definitely out of touch.  They could have invested in small business partnerships in the buildings to add amenities for their residents.  The Starbucks in 11 E was so awesome while it lasted.  I saw that as a creative way to attract business.  Unfortunately, when the free rent was up, the corp. closed it.  

These comments go back to the points posted under our top 10 things to move Downtown forward (see http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6638.0.html ).

We must make Downtown LIVABLE.  What makes it LIVABLE will have the dual benefit of attracting businesses with WORKERS.  The priorities for livability are convenient everyday services, outdoor spaces for recreation and reflection, safety, good transit connectivity, and, for families, schools within a reasonable distance (yes, La Villa is fine but it's a magnet school as I understand it so it may not be open for general education).

Pretty streets, pocket parks, Landing-style shopping, events and tourist stores, fireworks, incentives for corporate jobs and new development downtown, etc. are nice but are not the urgent priorities to jump start residential living. Suburban living proves this everyday.  People primarily move to the suburbs for schools, connectivity, green spaces, safety, and everyday shopping without specific incentives other than the subsidy we give developers by having the taxpayers provide such services at little or no costs.  They will travel for miles for jobs and events.

The way to bridge where we are now to the Downtown of the future is to immediately provide 24/7 urban core connectivity to those stores, services, and other immediate needs for existing Downtown residents until such time as we have enough of them to bring such services Downtown.  This would easily be accomplished today by PCT's and buses, and tomorrow by streetcars, to Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield.  By such connectivity, one combines the TOTAL buying power of all these surrounding areas with Downtown to create enough support for the highest level of urban core services.

This in turn comes back to the oft cited need for City Hall, JEDC, JTA, JAA, JEA, JPA, FDOT, MPO, State and Federal legislative delegations, and all other supporting casts to jointly meet and work TOGETHER for a common vision of Downtown (and, for that matter, the rest of the City).

[thelakelander]

Doubt it. Our residents dont see downtown as a place to visit unless its a holiday and its time to watch fire works.

Its not about trying to make it a place for suburbanites to visit.  Its about making DT and the urban core a self sustaining mixed-use community.  If you can do that, you'll create a vibrant downtown and you won't have to focus on pulling in suburbanities with gimmicks and one trick pony projects.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Dont our festivles and holidays do that already?

[mtraininjax]

People primarily move to the suburbs for schools, connectivity, green spaces, safety, and everyday shopping without specific incentives other than the subsidy we give developers by having the taxpayers provide such services at little or no costs.

So in essense, you are saying everyone who moves to the suburbs has kids (need for school) is in PTA (for connectivity purposes), can't find a park in the city with the most parks in Florida (need those woods in Mandarin), needs a sidewalk and bike path to ride little Johnie and susie around (most of Mandarin and southside neighborhoods don't have sidewalks or bike paths), and of course we need our shopping (when the very same shopping existed downtown decades ago). Glad to know that all the people who move to the suburbs are nicely wrapped in the same bow.

This would easily be accomplished today by PCT's and buses, and tomorrow by streetcars, to Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield.  By such connectivity, one combines the TOTAL buying power of all these surrounding areas with Downtown to create enough support for the highest level of urban core services.

Why would people come downtown when there is nothing to see? You can't build transit systems to nowhere. You start with businesses, they provide the tax revenue to incentivize more residential and pretty soon you can build you bus, rail, taxi lines from wherever to downtown, but it all starts with businesses. The City has no money, and you have to grow revenue to move to part B of residents then services. Without MONEY, you can't so much as build a cardboard box.

[iluvolives]

People primarily move to the suburbs for schools, connectivity, green spaces, safety, and everyday shopping without specific incentives other than the subsidy we give developers by having the taxpayers provide such services at little or no costs.

So in essense, you are saying everyone who moves to the suburbs has kids (need for school) is in PTA (for connectivity purposes), can't find a park in the city with the most parks in Florida (need those woods in Mandarin), needs a sidewalk and bike path to ride little Johnie and susie around (most of Mandarin and southside neighborhoods don't have sidewalks or bike paths), and of course we need our shopping (when the very same shopping existed downtown decades ago). Glad to know that all the people who move to the suburbs are nicely wrapped in the same bow.

This would easily be accomplished today by PCT's and buses, and tomorrow by streetcars, to Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield.  By such connectivity, one combines the TOTAL buying power of all these surrounding areas with Downtown to create enough support for the highest level of urban core services.

Why would people come downtown when there is nothing to see? You can't build transit systems to nowhere. You start with businesses, they provide the tax revenue to incentivize more residential and pretty soon you can build you bus, rail, taxi lines from wherever to downtown, but it all starts with businesses. The City has no money, and you have to grow revenue to move to part B of residents then services. Without MONEY, you can't so much as build a cardboard box.

What reason would you suggest that people choose suburbs if not these?

[mtraininjax]

My point is that not everyone makes those decisions in a nice wrapped bow. DT used to have all of these same options. It is all about choice and now about costs. When gas was 4 dollars a gallon JTA saw ridership it had not seen in years. As gas rises, people will move back in toward where they work, so now, right now, is the time to grow downtown with businesses and lure the workers closer to downtown and out of the suburbs. The biggest enemy for DT is St. Johns Town Center and its continued growth.

[thelakelander]

Why would people come downtown when there is nothing to see? You can't build transit systems to nowhere. You start with businesses, they provide the tax revenue to incentivize more residential and pretty soon you can build you bus, rail, taxi lines from wherever to downtown, but it all starts with businesses. The City has no money, and you have to grow revenue to move to part B of residents then services. Without MONEY, you can't so much as build a cardboard box.

The only way transit would stimulate growth and economic development would be to develop a fixed guideway system that connects actual existing destinations and where high densities of residential population exist with downtown being a stop along the way.  For example, something that would go from Riverside to Springfield connecting Park & King, St. Vincents, Five Points, Fidelity, BCBS, Prime Osborn, Downtown, Springfield and Shands.  In this case, DT is just a stop along a line of various destinations.  The benefit would be the core would have a viable transit line and blighted spots along the way (i.e. Brooklyn, LaVilla, Cathedral District, etc.) would become attractive infill development locations.  In the end, all of the isolated communities grow to combine to be one significant walkable self sustaining urban core.  

For those who need proof, just take a look at just about every American city that has opened a streetcar or LRT line since 2000.  The amount of success is staggering.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Mtrain your are right about STJTC, but this has been the way of thinking here. Put everything good as far away from DT as possible. On the same token not everyone wants to live DT, but some do and why would you want to live in DT Jax. City should ask itself that question?

[mtraininjax]

why would you want to live in DT Jax. City should ask itself that question?

Keith - Good question. Answer is pretty simple, if you had everything you NEEDED for life downtown, and costs were less for you and your family and you had a mindset for downtown life, why wouldn't you live downtown? For me, I am pretty simple, I need a few things, I need 1) dry cleaner, 2) bank, 3) Grocery, 4) restaurants, 5) gas station, 6) and access to road to travel to business buildings on Southside and Westside. I'd also like to get out to the FYC, but I could switch that out for the River Club. I have access to parks, I have access to the internet for entertainment, I could even attend more arts downtown, since I'd have no excuse. My mindset is that I could live downtown, and I wanted to before the Shipyards never materialized. My parents have a unit ready in the Peninsula on the 38th floor, if anyone is interested. I'd live there, I used to live in Seascape at the beach, so high rise is fine for me, but you have to have the right mindset for it.

My wife and I go downtown and stay in the Hyatt or Crown Plaza a few times year, just to stay downtown and walk or take the taxi across the river. Most people in the suburbs never experience what living is all about, especially in an urban core, and it will only get better, I firmly believe that, and I know the next Mayor will grow downtown. I'd pay more in taxes to see a revitalized downtown.

[stjr]

So in essense, you are saying everyone who moves to the suburbs has kids (need for school) is in PTA (for connectivity purposes), can't find a park in the city with the most parks in Florida (need those woods in Mandarin), needs a sidewalk and bike path to ride little Johnie and susie around (most of Mandarin and southside neighborhoods don't have sidewalks or bike paths), and of course we need our shopping (when the very same shopping existed downtown decades ago). Glad to know that all the people who move to the suburbs are nicely wrapped in the same bow.

Mtrain, I don't think you are really reading my posts or, if so, you have your mind so set on something, you can't see the alternative point being made.

We have NO parks with ball fields and trails Downtown.  Connectivity refers to transit options, not the PTA.  I never said everyone moves to the 'burbs for ALL the reasons cited, but for at least one, if not several of them.  My point was that almost none of the reasons is supported adequately Downtown so why move there?  Downtown may have had these things in the past but when they were lost, so went the residents.  There is no common "bow", but as humans, we mostly have common "basic" needs.  Downtown is insufficient in meeting them and the 'burbs aren't.  The proof is, as you note, evident by the location of the "rooftops".  

Why would people come downtown when there is nothing to see? You can't build transit systems to nowhere. You start with businesses, they provide the tax revenue to incentivize more residential and pretty soon you can build you bus, rail, taxi lines from wherever to downtown, but it all starts with businesses. The City has no money, and you have to grow revenue to move to part B of residents then services. Without MONEY, you can't so much as build a cardboard box.

Again, this completely misses my point.  I am advocating that RESIDENTIAL will drive the upturn to Downtown, not businesses or "something to see" as you advocate.  I explained how I would do it and you short circuited my points to make yours.   We are not on the same page but please don't reconstruct my comments to suit yours.  Thanks.

[mtraininjax]

I am advocating that RESIDENTIAL will drive the upturn to Downtown

How can residential grow downtown? If residential was to drive downtown, all the apartments and condos would be full downtown and there would be demand for more. What am I missing in your point(s)? You have my attention.

[mtraininjax]

We have NO parks with ball fields and trails Downtown.

Perhaps you do not have a baseball diamond. Do you really need one? You do have Kids Campus with its open spaces, met park, in San Marco you have the Balis park, or in Springfield, Klutho park. For many years there was a trail downtown along the northbank, and while it may not classify as a "trail", you can ride your non-motored bike from RAM all the way to Berkman, and over the bridge into San Marco.

You are correct though, I could not find a ball field downtown, except the Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville. Perhaps we can ask the City Council for money for one, that is if it will grow more residential units for downtown.