Carling, 11 East Bleeding Money: developer asks city for more help

[BridgeTroll]

I think most of us are leery at the prospect of coughing up more money to vestcor.  What would be the alternative?  Suppose they decide they have lost enough money...  What they seem to be asking for is to reduce their repayment to interest only for a period of three years.

[tufsu1]

Downtown wouldnt need any incentives if it was allowed to play on an even playing field.

Higher taxes than the rest of the City.  Penalties for visitors, harrassment of customers and residents, recurrent traffic shutdowns and isolation from the flow of business, and the co location of every pathology service organization in the city.

No other part of town has to deal with this nonsense----which is totally the result of City policy and administration.

If you removed these egregious downsides of the downtown, no one would have to be incentivized at all.

of course logic would serve that if you take away all the "impediments", you should also take away things like Art Walk, annual festivals, fireworks, tax rebates, etc.

That would be removing all incentives and playing on a level field...would downtown really do better under that scenario?

[CS Foltz]

stephendare..........I agree! I see City Hall doing nothing what so ever to entice anyone or anything to better downtown! Laura St improvement........whoopee! No infrastructure to support living downtown and Vesco has already gotten $21 Million Dollars worth to this point..........I don't care they just want to refinance the payments or delay! Mr Meserve is on the Council just to give Rood an in (like he needs one more right?) but he had better recluse himself. SA's office maybe charging him directly from the $106K he received from Vescor for just making sure people stayed at the table during some of those Mayport smoke filled room wheeling and dealings!

[tufsu1]

Neighborhoods have events like that all the time, and you know as well as I do that the BID acts much like a merchant's association except that it raises its funds through a self imposed property tax.

Yes...DVI is partially funded through a special assessment (tax) along with money from the City itself (also derived from taxes/fees)...among other things, these funds support the monthly ArtWalks.

Your earlier post seemed to decry the additional taxes forced on downtown businesss and suggested removing them (level the playing filed)...at a minimum, that idea would seriously jeopardize the ArtWalk program.

[tufsu1]

all I know stephen is that almost every successful downtown in America has a similar organization to DVI...and they are usually funded through special assessments.

As such, I would contend that the extra taxes are hardly the reason our downtown isn't flourishing.

But don't trust me...check with the International Dowtown Association

www.ida-downtown.org/

And, oh yeah, just about every other major city also has parking meters downtown.

[tufsu1]

This doesnt change the fact that downtown has to deal with things that no other area of town has to deal with.

agreed...but it also has many advantages over other areas of town...some of which (like the Riverwalks) were created to incentivize downtown.

[mtraininjax]

Stephen - The COJ Administrations have not had a growth policy for downtown since the Godbold Administrations. The exodus of businesses proves it.

Downtown isn't through incentives of dollars, but rather in infrastructure and amenities just like those provided for suburban areas:  good schools, parks, transit, security, street friendliness, etc.

STJR - The empty buildings could serve as schools, if there is a need, but there are only 2500 residents downtown, do we build a grade, middle and high school to represent those small numbers, or instead bus them to respective schools? La Villa is right down the street, I mean, does it really make sense? Expand La Villa, it has the land, and create more solutions downtown, again IF THERE IS A NEED.

Businesses did not leave downtown because of the schools, parks, transit, security or street friendliness, whatever that might be or have been, they left because they got a better deal to move by a developer. The owners of the buildings downtown have to get hungry and realize they are in a fight with Gate Parkway, one they will lose, if they do not get together and fight.

I don't mind giving Rood a no-interest extension, so long as he pays for the no-interest years with more fees later in the loan. The money has to be paid for the cost of the loan, if not now, then later. We, the bank, have to make sure we get a good return on our money.

[brainstormer]

As a former resident of The Carling, I understand and have fully experienced what it is like to live downtown.  I think the initial investment and partnership with Vestcor was smart and well intentioned.  It is smart public/private partnerships that allow many cities to jumpstart growth and private investment in neglected areas.  The renovations of these buildings are also an example of the city preserving history and not tearing it down.  Hard to believe, I know!!!

Unfortunately, the current situation has dual-sided responsibility.  This is yet another example in a continuous line of failures for our city government.  At the time of the initial venture to add housing in this area, there should have been a push for everything else to go with it as well.  I'm sure the city thought adding these residents would be enough by itself to create a vibrant downtown.  However, intelligent city planners with a vision and a plan know that the residents themselves are not enough.  They could have chosen the Laura/Adams Street area to make a push for other amenities as well.  Our current development plan in Jax is to scatter some money here and then I guess they just pray, instead of finishing the job before moving on!  I also blame the marketing dept. and management of Vestcor for not being proactive and definitely out of touch.  They could have invested in small business partnerships in the buildings to add amenities for their residents.  The Starbucks in 11 E was so awesome while it lasted.  I saw that as a creative way to attract business.  Unfortunately, when the free rent was up, the corp. closed it.  

Having spent the past 2 years living downtown, I am with the others who are tired of having to drive to everything I need.  Isn't the point of living in an urban area so one doesn't have to drive everywhere?  The city doesn't realize this yet.  Again development in the urban core is an unanswered prayer right now.

FYI, I am moving in a few weeks to the Tinseltown area where I have free parking and I can walk to a 24 drug store, a Publix, a dry cleaners, numerous dining establishments of varying ethnicity, etc.   It is also much closer to UNF where I will be working on my masters and the rent is less!  I tried downtown living for 2 years in this city, and I guess you can call me a quitter.  I'm okay with that. LOL

[thelakelander]

One of the biggest mistakes the city made was not doing anything with the Landing before the super bowl came.  That was an opportunity to really do something nice in the heart of the core and within walking distance of 11 East, the Carling, the library and the Knight Lofts and we pissed it all away over nothing.  That redevelopment plan would have included many of services that downtown's few residents have to drive outside of the core to access today.  Instead, all we ended up with is a pocket park on Main that no one wanted.

With that said, if Jacksonville were smart, we would immediately look into finally resolving the Landing issue and pushing for a redeveloped facility to anchor the Laura Street streetscape project and provide downtown residents with some valuable services they don't currently have access to.

[mtraininjax]

Lake - Woaaaa Nelly. The grocery store, the services, they were going to come with the library space, WHICH STILL SITS EMPTY, Vestcor should have made it more attractive to have the library and thus create a space for the services that the residents would have used, as well as most of downtown. There are still empty shells of buildings downtown that could become grocery/drug stores, in a partnership with Publix/CVS, or another chain, but the issue now is numbers, 2500 residents downtown is not enough to build a new fountain.

So a developer is going to have to get a sweetheart deal on a building, get incentives to lease the space to a groc/drug store, and the city will have to think LOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG TERM with its packages. Landing needs to be fixed, I agree, we need more parking and the space across at Hogan and Water is the solution in a parking deck, something Jax downtown loves to build, with retail on the ground floor as well. But really, how many people live a block or 2 from the Landing? All those empty retail shops on Bay before Ocean, and we can't get one supermarket merchant? The city needs to pay someone $10,000 to open a downtown supermarket. It would be worth it!

[thelakelander]

You're right, its a numbers game.  A full size grocery store like Publix (their smallest model is 28k sf)isn't coming downtown when there is already a Winn-Dixie in DT and a Publix a short drive away in Five Points.  I heard that out of the mouth from their head guy myself when MJ did a presentation for Lakeland's LEDC a few years back. 

However, even though the residential population is insignificant, something like a Walgreens or CVS should be feasible with 50,000 DT workers in the area.  Even DT Tampa and Birmingham have pharmacies.  Both of them also don't have huge residential population bases.  Also, while a Publix may be unrealistic, in a location like the Landing, a small local grocer (think 5,000sf or less) could be feasible.  When I look at the Landing, I see an opportunity for clustering and connectivity.  It would be great to have these things open in individual buildings all across DT but they would probably end up dying just like the 11 East Starbucks.  The Landing's mall doesn't really work for specialty retail but a reconfiguration of the building could make it viable for waterfront entertainment uses on one end and critical retail and service spaces (i.e. pharmacy, dry cleaners, mini-grocer, etc.) on the other.  All clumped together in one spot and they have a chance at stimulating enough pedestrian traffic to keep each other afloat.

[mtraininjax]

Lake - I agree, a CVS or Walgreens like the one at Park and King that has basics, milk, bread, eggs, some other cold items, could work to tie people over in a pinch. From the landing, 5 points is a good mile to 1.5 away, so probably would be someone other than Publix or Winn Dixie. Whole Foods, in a mini version? Have the city create the farmer's market at Whole Foods, in a carnival atmosphere, create the same fun and buzz of the RAM. City has to buy into it though, too much for the sole proprietor to take on right now.

[thelakelander]

Orlando's DT is light years ahead of ours (in terms of vibrancy and residential population), plus it had no existing grocer and they still had to toss in city money to get a Publix to open there a year or two ago.

There's no market for a full sized grocery in DT Jax.  Over the years, I've laid out several grocery stores and shopping centers for Regency Center and Publix.  From what I recall, a grocery store that size needs a built in residential population base of around 20k or so.  DT is no where near that, there's already a Winn-Dixie there and it will have less of a chance for another major grocer when Publix finally builds in San Marco.  The only wildcard would be to toss serious incentives at someone to subsidize their financial loss for going into a market that can't support them.  But if money is to be tossed around, it should go to more viable projects.

Anyway, they should definitely do some type of farmer's or seafood market at the Landing along Independent Drive.  That would be a good use of currently underutilized space.

[mtraininjax]

Lake - I never said full sized groc. Heck, 5 points is even too big. You need a bodega size, like in NYC, which is why a Whole Foods model would be best, with fresh items outside and the other items inside, in a retail, maybe double-spaced shop.

Landing would not be my choice, I'd put it between 11E and Carling, or on Laura, within a block of where most people could get to it with a few blocks. No one really shops at the Landing now, if Sleiman wanted a groc/drug store there, he would have already incentivized it to happen. Pretty obvious that is not on the top of their list.

[thelakelander]

Lake - I never said full sized groc. Heck, 5 points is even too big. You need a bodega size, like in NYC, which is why a Whole Foods model would be best, with fresh items outside and the other items inside, in a retail, maybe double-spaced shop.

Oh, I agree.  However, I'm not aware of Whole Foods having bodega sized stores in their chains. They are typically larger or just as large as the average Publix.  Btw, at 28k sf, the Five Points Publix is their smallest model.

Landing would not be my choice, I'd put it between 11E and Carling, or on Laura, within a block of where most people could get to it with a few blocks. No one really shops at the Landing now, if Sleiman wanted a groc/drug store there, he would have already incentivized it to happen. Pretty obvious that is not on the top of their list.

No one shops at the Landing because there's no reason to shop there.  Open up the courtyard to DT, flip the mall inside out so storefronts can directly face Independent Drive and solve the parking situation and it can be a viable destination for needed DT services as well as entertainment and dining. Also, Sleiman's original plan included Walgreens as a tenant, facing Laura Street.  The MJ guys got to visit the architect and see the construction documents back before the Big Idea plan came online.  However, like many chains (I've also designed stores for them), they require guaranteed number of parking spaces, which is something the Landing can't currently offer, thus no deal.