Carling, 11 East Bleeding Money: developer asks city for more help

[thelakelander]

There is a ballpark in Klutho Park, which once served as the central recreational space for DT and Springfield.  Its a lot closer to the Northbank core than the stadium district.  The problem is that we draw these imaginary borders around DT instead of attempting to reconnect it with nearby urban districts. 

[thelakelander]

On the flip end, most of the new suburban areas of town have less parks and trails then downtown.  Instead you have to drive miles to a regional park.

[stjr]

I am advocating that RESIDENTIAL will drive the upturn to Downtown

How can residential grow downtown? If residential was to drive downtown, all the apartments and condos would be full downtown and there would be demand for more. What am I missing in your point(s)? You have my attention.

Mtrain,  this is the best I can do to make it clear:

1. Provide Downtown the bundle of basic amenities desired by most people to meet their minimum standards for choosing an area to live in.  Some amenities will need to be offered creatively until they can be supported exclusively by Downtown residents.  One way is to have JTA offer frequent, 24/7 transit connections to join all the urban core areas to achieve the needed numbers to support everyday retail and service needs.
2. Demand will naturally increase for Downtown living options given that it is now on par with other options from a livability standpoint for many (will never be all).  The market will sort out price competitiveness.  
3. As residential living gradually increases (will take awhile to reach the "takeoff" threshold - we need to be patient) it will attain a level that will attract a corresponding increase in Downtown oriented everyday retail and services.
4. With sufficient residential numbers and supporting retail/services, Downtown will become of greater interest to professional firms and small businesses whose owners/key employees are attracted to Downtown living.
5. With a self-sustaining and newly perceived  (e.g. if it's safe enough to live in, it must be safe enough to visit) Downtown will become attractive to progressive corporations and attractions/events for both Downtown residents and visitors.  Downtown residents will be the ultimate promoters of Downtown, not the City.
6.  Downtown will follow the footsteps of other great Downtown rebirths from here.

[stjr]

On the flip end, most of the new suburban areas of town have less parks and trails then downtown.  Instead you have to drive miles to a regional park.

Lake, it's not the distance, it's the connectivity.  Connectivity for Downtown is walking, biking, or mass transit, or why live there.  In the 'burbs, its the auto for now.  Measuring time, it's far more convenient for most to travel in the 'burbs by car for a few miles than to go 10 or 20 blocks Downtown.  As you and Ock have noted, we need good PCT, bus, and streetcar connectivity 24/7 to the needed amenities with frequent and reliable headways to bridge the gap.  Anything less will hold Downtown living back.

[thelakelander]

I agree.  I've been saying connectivity has been the main overlooked element in this redevelopment puzzle since MJ went live.  On the surface, its not as sexy as building an movie theater or building a highrise but it packs a more powerful punch.

[mtraininjax]

STJR - Let me see if I understand your core belief....you want the citizens of Jacksonville to give up their automobile, live downtown, and use public transportation to go to their destinations? A hum and spoke system in essence where all transportation funnels back into the core from the outlying areas.

It is interesting, it works in cities with real transportation problems. Jacksonville does not have a real transportation problem right now. Our roads are relatively unclogged. We are not to the transportation stage that demands that people can travel faster and more efficiently using public transportation, than their own car. Would I like a MARTA style system to take me from downtown to the beach or heck, I'd take a OCK-styless JTA trolley from Avondale to Downtown every weekend if they had it, but you will have a very hard sale to get people to first give up their cars to travel unless gas gets to be 5 or 6 bucks a gallon, in which case, we had already have the basic services you discuss.

But its a chicken and egg game here, how do you get services downtown first for residents? Only way I see it is to incentivize the services. Dry Cleaner, groc/drug store, all need to be incentivized by the City first. Someone needs to drink the Koolaid and fall down the rabbit hole, we need a first, it won't be pretty, but we need to learn from it and grow the services. We have 2500 residents already. Next would be to incentivize other businesses to come down, first one gets the prize, the others get to learn from the first.

Connectivity will be great, but you have to get people out of their cars, and the only way I see to get them out, and stay out, is through high costs of fuel. We saw it briefly with 4 dollar gas.

[thelakelander]

NYC has the most extensive subway in the country and its streets are still congested.  You will never get people out of their cars. That's really not the point.  Transit connectivity is more about giving people viable mobility options and place making or city shaping.  Provide true efficient, frequent and reliable connectivity between established destinations and you won't need incentives to open businesses in a place that's simply not ready for them.  With connectivity, you expand your market base.  This has been clearly evident in similar sized cities that have made this investment.  With a struggling DT core, Jax needs to seriously consider this issue before writing it off.

[Keith-N-Jax]

I think what he's saying is that DT must become a place where people want to live.Its really not that right now. It must have all the ingredients to substain a community. And no matter what transportation options are some people are not going to give up their cars. I belive STJR mentioned that. We may not be at a stage where a system like Marta is needed, but I hope we dont continue to rely on building roads. Not everyone can afford a car. High fuel will make people drive and spend less probably not stop driving.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Lake I was thinking the same thing as many times I have been to New York. I was with out a car for 8 months in ATL one time. Thank God for Marta. I couldnt imagine being trapped in Jax without a car.That would be miserable.

[mtraininjax]

This has been clearly evident in similar sized cities that have made this investment.  With a struggling DT core, Jax needs to seriously consider this issue before writing it off.

Lake - Do you have some examples in numbers of how this investment in transportation has helped transform downtown areas into thriving environments? Not doubting you, I would just like to see some empirical data and not just some names of cities. I want to see how they have grown before and after. I just a bit more skeptical, I suppose. I don't see how an expanded transit system could and will bring life to downtown.

Manhatten is a bad example too, it is constrained by water on both sides. Do you have another example of bad traffic in an urban area where geographic constraints do not add to the traffic problem?

[Keith-N-Jax]

Mtrain, you dont think how vastly Jax is spread out is a constraint?

[mtraininjax]

I think what he's saying is that DT must become a place where people want to live.Its really not that right now. It must have all the ingredients to substain a community. And no matter what transportation options are some people are not going to give up their cars. I belive STJR mentioned that. We may not be at a stage where a system like Marta is needed, but I hope we dont continue to rely on building roads. Not everyone can afford a car. High fuel will make people drive and spend less probably not stop driving.

My point is that before you can have a transit system, you have to have the business downtown to help pay for the services to sustain life and community. Without people living, eating, sleeping, working downtown, you don't need a transit system. Our city does not have the money to grow without revenue. Best way to get revenue and benefit downtown is to grow the core with more businesses. It adds workers downtown and expands the need for services downtown, (has anyone played Sim City?) by growing the tax base, you have funds for the downtown services and can then afford to build a transit system to send people for more complex products and services elsewhere in the county, but it all starts with growing the tax revenue downtown, and I only see business growth/development as the first building block, I don't see transit as the first block as others do.

[Keith-N-Jax]

LOL I liked SIM City and yes went broke many times, but hey skyline would rival NY or Chicago. Not to mention my domed stadium.

[mtraininjax]

Mtrain, you dont think how vastly Jax is spread out is a constraint?

Keith - What does that have to do with a 24/7 transit system? I'd rather use my car to get to Baldwin than having to Hub/spoke to a downtown core then out to Baldwin and wonder if and when the next transit vehicle can or will return me back to downtown. I'm willing to pay 4 dollars a gallon or more for the freedom, and the new roads are fine, put a toll on them, I would rather use the car and roads, even with tolls.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Nothing just saying that should be consider a constraint as well as by being trapped by water. Also just because you would rather drive you car doesnt mean everyone else in the region does.