State Rd 9B

[stjr]

The red herring of "jobs, jobs, jobs" and "economic development" is the broken record refrain from developers and road builders for every project they conceive.  It's bull malarkey.

That isn't the issue.  The issue is where do we spend our taxpayer dollars overall, and for that portion designated for transportation, where should those dollars best be applied.

I guarantee you spending the 9B funds on education of our kids will do far more for jobs and our economy than building 9b to serve Flagler Development and the likes.  And, spending those same dollars on mass transit, such as commuter rail on FEC's tracks with a stop at Flagler might both generate more jobs and economic development while simultaneously reducing urban sprawl and providing a "green" solution.

As to the comment about complaining to elected officials, that is unrealistic for most of us citizens with families and jobs.  We should not have to make a full time avocation of watching our planners and politicos who are charged with making PROFESSIONAL decisions in the areas of planning our community.  If I have to do your job, give me your paycheck.  And, no politico is going to side with Joe the Plumber when they have their campaign accounts lined by developer and contractor donations and a plethora of "planners" and road builders armed with CYA "studies"  (paid for by the pound) and jargon galore about building a road that keeps said planners and road builders employed.

Take the 9B money and put it on a ballot with all the other community projects that money could fund.  I would bet 9B would fall to the bottom of the list.

In the real world, this is just another example of special interests overriding community interests, plain and simple.

[tufsu1]

I guarantee you spending the 9B funds on education of our kids will do far more for jobs and our economy than building 9b to serve Flagler Development and the likes.  

you know that is a non-starter...sorry, but gas taxes get used for transportation....unless you're endorsing the raiding of the transportation trust fund to balance the general budget...as the Legislature has done the past few years.

As for not being able to complain to elected officials....you don't have time to make a phone call or send an e-mail?

Finally, to your suggestion of putting the issue on a ballot...imagine if we put 9B, commuter rail, and streetcar to referendum...care to guess which would likely be most popular in Duval County?

[stjr]

I guarantee you spending the 9B funds on education of our kids will do far more for jobs and our economy than building 9b to serve Flagler Development and the likes.  

you know that is a non-starter...sorry, but gas taxes get used for transportation....unless you're endorsing the raiding of the transportation trust fund to balance the general budget...as the Legislature has done the past few years.

No more a non-starter than claiming this road is the savior of jobs and our economy. Taxes are fungible.  I don't care where they come from.  They can go anywhere we as a community (state) want them to go.  It's all about priorities.  And, since when do gas taxes pay the full costs of roads anyway?  What about all that federal money?  Doesn't it pay 80% or so of interstate type roads like 9B?  Didn't someone say that 9B is being funded by stimulus money?  If so, that's not gas tax money.  Sorry, Tufsu, this response doesn't hold water.

As for not being able to complain to elected officials....you don't have time to make a phone call or send an e-mail?

Tufsu, yes one can do that.  But, other than using common sense (sadly lacking in this planning process) what can an average citizen say or do that would bring this pre-ordained (backroom) project to a halt?  Can you show us one time when an average citizen (or even a group of average citizens) stopped or even slowed down the approval of a road like this?  It's disingenuous for you to make this comment when you know it a mere pipe dream in reality.  Have you ever stepped up as a citizen (not as a professional road planner or whatever) and influenced a decision on a road like this?

Finally, to your suggestion of putting the issue on a ballot...imagine if we put 9B, commuter rail, and streetcar to referendum...care to guess which would likely be most popular in Duval County?

Tufsu, you might be surprised here.  The mass transit options would touch a lot more people voting than 9B is likely to touch.  And, contribute to the improved welfare of all of Duval County, not a little slice owned by special interests.  If I could make this a reality, I would take you up on it in a heartbeat.

[tufsu1]

No more a non-starter than claiming this road is the savior of jobs and our economy. Taxes are fungible.  I don't care where they come from.  They can go anywhere we as a community (state) want them to go.  It's all about priorities.  And, since when do gas taxes pay the full costs of roads anyway?  What about all that federal money?  Doesn't it pay 80% or so of interstate type roads like 9B?  

I never said the road would bring jobs...I only noted that the ramp to Flagler would serve 5000+ existing jobs.

As for gas taxes, you do know that we pay Federal, State, and Local gas taxes, right?

Sadly the reason stimulus funds are needed is because the Federal Transportation Trust Fund has been sorely under-funded for years....the average American pays about $10 a month in gas taxes...that's a pretty good deal for a utility (can't even get cable or phone for that price).  

As a result, Congress has had to infuse the trust fund with general revenues several times in the past few years....so why would you suggest taking money from the trust fund to pay for other things?

Finally...on the referendum issue...I hope I'm wrong but I think you are in dream land...we'll get an idea come November, when voters in Tampa will get a chance to vote on a 1-cent sales tax that will primarily (75%) fund transit.

[stjr]

...Congress has had to infuse the trust fund with general revenues several times in the past few years....so why would you suggest taking money from the trust fund to pay for other things?

Maybe because the trust fund is funding unnecessary, special interest, and/or lower priority projects that it should not?

You also are confirming my exact point that, yes, governmental revenues added to these abused road trust funds are just that - "general".  As such, they are being diverted from other uses such as.... education, mass transit, homeland security, military, etc.... pick your alternative priority.

[thelakelander]

Finally...on the referendum issue...I hope I'm wrong but I think you are in dream land...we'll get an idea come November, when voters in Tampa will get a chance to vote on a 1-cent sales tax that will primarily (75%) fund transit.

I think this depends on how a referendum is shaped.  If the public budget to fund one of the three projects was $170 million (the cost of 9B), I do believe the public would vote for a mass transit based project.

1. SR 9A (I'm using this to set the budget for the other two modes)
$170 million/11.6 miles = 14.66 million/mile

2. Commuter Rail
$170 million / $6 million per mile = 28.33 miles of track (this is roughly the distance between the airport and Old St. Augustine Road.)

3. Streetcar
$170 million / $10 million per mile = 17 miles of streetcar track.

Framed this way, I do believe that the public would go for a mass transit project because it would provide a greater impact on a larger segment on the local population than 9B would.  Plus, it doesn't hurt that the projects would get the community more bang for its buck.

[stjr]

^Lake, right on.  This is exactly my point.  Just based on how many are impacted for the better, mass transit dollars would go much farther than 9B funds.  By the way, do your costs include ROW acquisition?  If not, I would guess the advantage of mass transit would increase as it uses mostly existing ROW and new roads like 9B require the purchase of new land.

As I have said before, with projects like 9B, our "planners" and politicos are not building for the community, they are building for special interests.

[tufsu1]

Framed this way, I do believe that the public would go for a mass transit project because it would provide a greater impact on a larger segment on the local population than 9B would.  Plus, it doesn't hurt that the projects would get the community more bang for its buck.

I'm not so sure that's how it would be framed...try it this way...projected ridership:

SR 9B - 60,000 vehicles per day (equates to about 75,000 people)
Commuter Rail and Streetcar - 25,000 riders per day each (and that's being optimistic)

You know as well as I do that the anti-transit folks will argue that it is a pipe dream, that Jax. doesn't need it now, and that we don't have the density for it....and then they'll bring up stjr's favorite project, the Skyway....$200 million for less than 3,000 riders a day.

[thelakelander]

It would be up to the seller to frame and sell a project or a plan.  Speaking of which, I would personally never compare a transit project in terms of "ridership" with a highway the way you just did.  I'd run with the cause and effect and economic development platform.  One meets the goals and visions the community continues to express, curbs sprawl, gives people mobility choice and encourages better utilization of existing infrastructure.  The other does the exact opposite.  

Of course the anti transit folks will come with their decades old arguments, but the recent party buster has been the pro transit people who can spin things right around.  For example, our city's budget is a mess right now and that mess is directly related to years of unsustainable growth as a result of projects like 9B and the low density land uses that complement them.  Make the connection, and I do believe things can go in the opposite direction.

[tufsu1]

As I have said before, with projects like 9B, our "planners" and politicos are not building for the community, they are building for special interests.[/b]

One more thing...there are quite a few planners, including myself, that are not big fans of SR 9B....but to say we are working for special interests is, in many cases, disingenuous...I have not received one phone call or e-mail from a developer or land use attorney in the area regarding SR 9B....and in fact my firm does just about no private-sector work in the area.

That said, I have run the numbers and looked at the land use forecasts and plans adopted by local governments...if these are in fact even close to on target, SR 9B will be needed to relieve congestion on I-95 (especially at the I-295 interchange) sooner rather than later....the other option would have been to widen both I-95 and I-295.

Sometimes planners are proactive, helping shape the community....other times we must be more reactive, responding to a particular issue or concern.

[thelakelander]

^Another option would be to provide commuter rail through that corridor and strengthening the multimodal connectivity in that area between the rail line and the existing road network.  However, you're right in that the land use forecasts and plans adopted by local governments in that area encourage the type of sprawl to feed and congest monsters like 9B.  Then a couple of years down the road, local government will be crying that revenue doesn't bring in the amount of money for the city to maintain itself.  Its like a bad dream and death cycle that never ends.

[north miami]

As I have said before, with projects like 9B, our "planners" and politicos are not building for the community, they are building for special interests.[/b]

One more thing...there are quite a few planners, including myself, that are not big fans of SR 9B....but to say we are working for special interests is, in many cases, disingenuous...I have not received one phone call or e-mail from a developer or land use attorney in the area regarding SR 9B....and in fact my firm does just about no private-sector work in the area.

That said, I have run the numbers and looked at the land use forecasts and plans adopted by local governments...if these are in fact even close to on target, SR 9B will be needed to relieve congestion on I-95 (especially at the I-295 interchange) sooner rather than later....the other option would have been to widen both I-95 and I-295.

Sometimes planners are proactive, helping shape the community....other times we must be more reactive, responding to a particular issue or concern.

Marching to the beat of "Forecasts"-Planners & Consultants joined at the hip with development interests and local government,interfacing with the 'public' injecting a self professed stern message of "inevitable" and an assumption that predetermined outcome will be granted by the public,the public often unaware of it's legal role and power in granting.

The role of State DCA-and attempts to circumvent the agency often so troubling to Planners & Consultants is telling.(Not that the dynamic has seen much 'press' to date)

Clay county section of the beltway could be named in honor of Genesis Group and Reinhold-

[tufsu1]

north miami....planners are no different than the general populace....we have varied opinions and beliefs.

[north miami]

north miami....planners are no different than the general populace....we have varied opinions and beliefs.

P.S.- the curious jog in the Beltway near the St.Johns County river shore could be named "Ringhaver Preserve Loop"

[TheProfessor]

More Sprawl!