Are boarding houses really the problem?

[strider]

I completely understand that we are all striving to make Springfield a vibrant family community and boarding houses are what is standing in the way of that.

The above quote is from the SPAR forum thread about a possible low density group care home on Boulevard.  The thread on Metrojax is titled “Help”.  This statement was made by a young woman who is a fairly recent resident in Historic Springfield and so I believe her opinion is the result of what I am going to call the “SPAR Council Company Line”. 

It is an interesting statement...one we have heard many times....but we need to ask: Can someone provide the proof of that?  Can any of you really define "boarding house" , "Rooming house",  "Halfway House",  "Bed and Breakfast",  "Extended stay motel" ,"Group Care Home",  "ACLF",  "Residential Treatment Facility" , “Sober Living Facility” and "Community Residential Home"? How do they differ and what do they have in common?  Do you know the history of boarding houses and rooming houses and how it relates to Springfield?  Do you know the positives derived from having boarding houses and such through the years?  How and why did it change from a positive to a negative, if it in fact did? 

Can we find proof of what either caused the decline of Springfield or has hindered it’s resurgence by looking at the various groups and programs that came before say 1998? Were the programs used in Springfield the same as those used in places like Savannah?  Did Savannah have the same issues with what we call “Special Uses” and what did they do about them? What are the prejudices against the special uses and are they unfounded or based on fact?

Why do people live in a rooming house?  Why a boarding house?  Have the reasons changed from say 1909 to today?  If so, why and in what ways?

Can single men or women live in and be part of a "vibrant family community"?  Do you have to be rich to do so or can you be poor?  If you only make minimum wage part time, can you afford an apartment? If so, what would it be like?  Would a single room be nicer and better?  With the current economic conditions,  does having boarding houses and rooming houses make sense again? 

If the metro edge study indicates that 44% of the residents make less than 15K per year, can those who have families but are low income  be part of the "Vibrant Family Community" you want?  Or do they not make enough to participate? 

To have equal sharing of the “homeless and poor problem” and the facilities that help them, does that mean that some of the rich must move over to Evergreen?  To Moncrief?  Doesn’t it seems logical that if you require the poor to move on, then some of the rich must move as well to keep things balanced? 

Why are the facilities here in the urban core and not on , say, the Southside?  Why don’t these facilities move and build elsewhere?  Is there a valid reason they are here and remain here?  Are there in fact any facilities in the other areas of town and are they successful? Would it make more sense to work with the various facilities to insure that they are more of a positive to the community rather than just trying to or at least hoping to eliminate them?

These are just a few of the questions that must be addressed before you can make statements like the one quoted.  If this results in a discussion, much of it will be a rehash of things discussed before, but as this issue is one that continually comes up and so much of what is said is far from factual, perhaps something positive can be gleamed by some and therefore, we can move closer to a better solution to the issue. 

[Karl_Pilkington]

having lived in various areas of this state, particularly south florida for a number of years I will say this in regard to your statement:  The transient nature of boarding houses foster a suspicion by the property owners.

Those who have planted roots by purchasing property in an area have a vested interest in the betterment of that area.  When I lived in South Florida I was a renter.  I could move at will.  I mostly lived in apartment buildings, but did live in south beach for a while in an old house that a couple of friends rented.  The neighborhood was mostly rental, so nobody really knew each other as people were constantly moving in and moving out.  I found Neptune Beach to be a bit different.  It had both rentals and owners.  The owners had been there and were generally not interested in getting to know the renters because they knew that eventually they'd move and they'd just have to start the entire 'hey neighbor' all over again.  During my time in Neptune Beach I will say that there were way more problems due to the large number of rentals than was happening just down the street in old atlantic beach where some of my friends lived. 

So, in my opinion, the prevalence of boarding houses in a neighborhood brings a transient element to the neighborhood.  The owner/neighbors then become suspicious of strangers and reluctant to get to know new people which diminishes the neighborhood feeling and ultimately the neighborhood deteriorates.

And, while there are the example of the good boarding house owner who rents to decent hardworking people and takes care of his rental, there are many many examples of the opposite, an absentee owner who only cares about the monthly rent could care less about the upkeep, the type of renter, the yard etc.. 

Lastly, why don't these boarding house owners want to live in the neighborhood in which they operate their business?  hmmmm nope me thinks they'd rather enjoy the quietness of a neighborhood that is less transient and they'd much rather play the martyr and demonize all those meany neighborhood residents who dare to speak against the poor downtrodden or drug and alcohol addicted that they are so magnanimously helping.  Blech.

[Deuce]

You hit it on the head Karl! You're right Stephen, they do. I don't want a house with 5 college kids next to me any more than I want one with 5 vietnam vets.

[downtownparks]

Yes, brilliant assessment. Its only one or two of us pushing all of this.

[Ocklawaha]

You hit it on the head Karl! You're right Stephen, they do. I don't want a house with 5 college kids next to me any more than I want one with 5 vietnam vets.

Oh yeah! We were loved in the 1960's and 70's too, 56,000 boys died in Vietnam (a great deal of it because we couldn't shoot back) a situation certain to mess up your brain for life. It's called PTSD for a reason, but I guess we soldier on as an army without a home...So Springfielders, everyone join in a sing!

The Vietnam Song by Country Joe and the Fish

Well, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Come on Wall Street, don't be slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of its trade,
But just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Viet Cong.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Now you can go out and get those reds
'Cause the only good commie is the one that's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
Come on fathers, and don't hesitate
To send your sons off before it's too late.
And you can be the first ones in your block
To have your boy come home in a box.

And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die

OCKLAWAHA

[Sigma]

Maybe we can sit down and talk about it over a few beers...just like Obama.

Stephen, will you bring the beer?  

Nevermind.

[nvrenuf]

The present campaign however, has nothing to do with that old rightful crusade.  Its just a business deal apparently gone sour over time.

I said I would never ask for clarification again but here I go and hoping it doesn't result in a diatribe.

Stephen, if the business deal you are referring to is between downtownparks and strider then you are mistaken in your assessment if you believe that is what MY campaign is about. Karl P expressed my concerns very well. I do not wish to see an onslaught and resurgence of slumlords. I'm still on that "old rightful crusade."

Some say strider's properties are the gold standard of property mgmt. That doesn't mean the next 10 businesses who come in will hold to the same standard. You can argue that I can't guarantee the person who buys the house next to me will be of high moral fortitude either. True, but having put a chunk of change (relevant to their income) into their home, they are far more likely to take pride in their property and surroundings. The transient population of renters, etc have proven time and time again that left to their own devices the majority do not. We have to just HOPE that mgmt is on top of things. If they aren't, who suffers? Not the manager who doesn't live near the property.

I THINK we agree that we don't want SPR to go down that path again. We disagree that this whole discussion is because of one or two personal crusades...IF that is what you are saying.

[sheclown]

well, I have an interesting take on this...perhaps boarding houses just saved this little neighborhood...made these houses economically viable when nothing else would work.  Think about Springfield, I read 95% of the buildings were historic as opposed to quite a smaller percentage of them in Riverside.  That is because it was Jacksonville's dumping ground, but that was also its saving Grace.  If it had been economically viable to build a 70s apartment complex in the middle of Pearl Street, it would have happened.

[strider]

We have a relative who was one of the first women to get a degree from the University of Wisconsin .  She eventually married and her husband did not think it was proper for a woman to go to college (even though he obviously thought his wife turned out ok) and so forbade his wife to send his daughter off to school.  His wife, our great, great aunt, left him, bought a large home in the college town and earned enough to live and send a daughter to school by running a proper boarding house.  After all, it was one of the few OK ways for a single or widowed woman to earn a living. 

I’m sure that some people here in Jacksonville have relatives that made their living with rooming houses and boarding houses and would take great offence at being lumped in with the slumlords some of you are talking about.  Did you know that Ms. Lucy, the past owner of one of the remaining rooming houses, was born in that house and then, eighty years later, ended her days there. She was know as running a tight ship. Not exactly the "absentee" landlord you are talking about. She kept a picture taken from her porch of JFK riding down Main Street in a convertible on her wall. 

Defend me, blast me, I really do not care, but go find the answers to some of the questions.  You will be surprised at what you learn and what is really the truth.  (PS- the great, great aunt and her husband got back together after the daughter finished college.)

[downtownparks]

I actually don't disagree with you at all Sheclown. as many as we lost, It could have been a lot worse. I dont know that I can honestly celebrate the human carnage left in the wake of the slumlords, with the people living in fear from the drug dealers and thieves, but had they not been economically viable, they would have been torn down.

[Karl_Pilkington]

The fine lines of distinction, I think, have been deliberately blurred in such a way that ends up demonizing a good neighbor:  Strider.

umm yeah, he's not a neighbor to any of us.  He's no more a neighbor than Jim Brewer or Chris Hionedis, so save your sanctimony please.

and Strider, your story was so heartfelt I almost shed a tear......almost.  So your great aunt lived in and ran a "proper" boarding house, congrats, that must make you proud.  But she lived there making it her home too, something that is very rare in the boarding house industry, but hey I'm preaching to the choir right?

perhaps if strider and his wife sheclown weren't such boarding house advocates us residents of SPR wouldn't feel so compelled to call the pot black.

[nvrenuf]

Hold on people. Who is making these generalizations? Did anyone say they are all lumped together? No. YOU are doing that. But for every good landlord there are often 10 slumlords. So please quit the accusatory grand sweeping. I have a very good friend who is one of the best landlords I know. Her tenants love her and they are also aware of every lousy slumlord they've had before her.

[Karl_Pilkington]

And Karl, maybe if they werent having to unfairly defend themselves all the time, they wouldnt be such 'advocates'

no quite the contrary, if they weren't in the boarding house business they wouldn't be such advocates.  They've kinda got a monetary interest in boarding houses don'tcha think? 

[strider]

Before you can complain about what the boarding houses, ETC.  have done to Springfield, you need to know what they were all about.  That is the point of my earlier story - to show that they were once a very acceptable way to make a living and they were a very acceptable and needed way to live.

Many of you own homes that at some point in time were converted from single family to a duplex or even a triplex or quad.  Do you know when it was done?  The vast majority, based on what I know, were converted to at least a duplex in the 'teens.  About the time WWI geared up.  Probably in response to a housing shortage.  Then in the late thirties, early forties, many of them were cut up even further.  Again, as WWII geared up at the end of the depression, there was a housing shortage.  I suppose you could blame it on the greed of the slumlords, but as Springfield was hardly a slum at those times, it would be a big stretch.

Let’s back up a moment.  Why were rooming houses, and more likely, boarding houses needed so much?  First, you do know the difference, right?  A rooming house traditionally provides you with a room, most likely a common bathroom (down the hall), all for a modest daily or weekly charge.  A Boarding house, on the other hand, provided, well, the same exact thing.  Except that the owner or owner’s wife cooked for you.  At one table, normally, just like a family.  Imagine that.

Why were boarding houses so popular?  Well, Mc Donald’s wasn’t around until the sixties basically, so where could the good, single men who hadn’t a clue how to cook supposed to go for the greasy hamburger? At the turn of the century,  it was very common for single young men to live in a boarding house, especially in the smaller towns and cities, which Jacksonville was certainly one of at the time. It was sort of like still being part of a family yet sort of still independent. Why In Springfield?  Well, along about the same time, the car was beginning to be common place, public transportation was expanding and it became more fashionable for the more well to do to move on out to the ‘burbs…which was Riverside along about then.  So, yes, there were a lot of large houses available for the right money.   It was also the urban core and downtown was thriving then.  A very desirable place to live if you were among the newly forming middle class and were young at heart.

As we move forward in time, the role of the boarding house and rooming house began to change.  I would imagine that by the forties, it was mostly single men who were here for the work the shipyards and warehouses provided.  I also know the even into the nineties at least one rooming house owner specialized in the merchant marines.  Think of the fact that a seaman would be out to sea the majority of the time, but like most people, needed a place to keep stuff and to live when he was in his home port.  A rooming house was idea.  Very affordable and far more roomier than his place on the freighter.  Ever watch an old movie where the fairly well to do couple had a room in a nice hotel with the bathroom down the hall. ?  It was very common then and still is in many areas of the european countries.  Some of those old hotels were actually what we would call a rooming house today.


OK, enough for now.  You can now go back to bashing me and mine if you like.  I do find it somewhat amusing.  It’s interesting too see someone’s true colors.  And Ocklawaha  - thanks for the song, it’s been a long time since I "heard" that!

[nvrenuf]

Joe, that is a wonderful trip down memory lane. Back to what many refer to as the time of innocence. Unfortunately we are no longer a country of innocence and it isn't always the war widow renting to the GI just back from the good fight. Many rooming houses and boarding houses turned into the sleaziest, nastiest drug havens possible. If this is truly what you think they were in the not as distant past as the Disneyesque picture you painted, I'll tell you about the house we bought. Where every room had a hasp & lock, the water was cut off yet no one stopped using the toilet. When the bowl filled they used the tank. For at least the first year people walked by telling us about what a drug infested at-home abortion lovely little home we had. THAT is the rooming house neighborhood we do not want to turn back into.