$ky-high-way POLL: Pick it's fate (or your poison)!

[stjr]

Reduction in numbers is pretty easy to explain fellows......no one is taking into the account the economy! You have to be working to pay to ride anything and raising rates just throttles things even more!

CS, that's why I went out of my way to show comparable numbers for the nation and other mass transit systems in the same cities as the cited $ky-high-ways.  None of them suffered the declines seen by the $ky-high-ways.  Thus, I don't think you can look to the economy to explain this.  Some might even argue that in a bad economy, more people could migrate to mass transits system as they are more affordable for users to utilize for travel.

[stjr]

The "standard" measurements are Passenger Miles per ______. One passenger, one mile, one direction. To evaluate any mass transit system on a level playing field, one could use Passenger Miles per gallon, per hour, day, week, month, or per hour per direction.

OCKLAWAHA

Seems this would rank the $ky-high-ways even lower in usefulness as they have some of the fewest riders on the shortest systems.  That would likely give them very low passenger miles by almost any measure.  I just don't see any data anywhere that supports these systems over alternate ones.  Not in Jax, not elsewhere.

[Ocklawaha]

It just might, then again, calculating that at least half the riders probably cross the river, that's a run of about a mile. So considering system size, and potential destinations into that mix might not be too bad. The worse part of a side by side with the Skyway and Miami, Detroit, Morgantown, etc... Is that each of those systems were completeled as projected. Miami is even expanding theirs. So how would we adjust for 4 out of 8+ miles.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Why single out the skyway?  Didn't a drop in service occur over the last year, with service now ending at 7pm?  The fare was also raised to $0.50. We already know that its screwed up with poor service and transit system integration.

Lake, the above service changes are the schedule following the traffic.  Little traffic leads to a reduced schedule.  Don't blame the schedule, blame the traffic.  As to the other points, the fare (Really, how much lower than 50 cents could it be?  This hardly makes it unaffordable.  Most parking meters cost a lot more than this!) and system integration issues were not issues when it was built and traffic is off over 90% from projections for the AS BUILT EXISTING COMPLETED system.  As to poor management, consider the same management would run an expanded system.  So, we should expect more of the same.  Another reason not to invest further.

We also know the original estimates were cooked for the proposed larger system and the 2.5 mile system that was built. 

No surprise to me.  How about pushing for a grand jury investigation.  You just accused the consultant of lying and not delivering what they were paid to do.  Again, why do you think history won't repeat itself with an expansion?  I am sure of it because it can't be justified otherwise.

My predicition for the rest of the year is a continuation of a drop in ridership numbers, with JTA proposing to eliminate Saturday service.  Short of shutting it down and repaying the government the $184 million it cost to construct it, the only way to turn these numbers around would be better integration and efficiency.

We do agree on a continued traffic drop, but not on what to do next.  I say cut our losses, abandon it, and pursue much better alternatives.  I still have not seen one actual citation of a document proving that the workers can't be released and that the Feds would penalize us.  Even if true, I am sure we can negotiate something without penalties if we endeavored on a new and better mass transit alternative.  The $ky-high-way was a pork barrel project ("experiment" to its apologists) that failed immensely and no one should have to keep it going on life support indefinitely at great expense to the taxpayers, both local and federal.

However, take a look at other mass transit systems during the same time period, the numbers are all over the place...
....In the end, while we can point out situations that would cause the skyway's numbers to fall, its hard to tell why Boston's BRT dropped 20%, Miami's Metromover 7.46% or San Diego's Sprinter nearly 18%.  Its also hard to explain Tampa's streetcar shooting up 40% or the Rail Runner going up 220% (although I suspect this is due to the extension of the line to Santa Fe).

My guess, is that the DTs of Miami and Detroit took a huge hit with the fall of the real estate boom.  If there is less people coming into their downtown areas now, its possible that service would drop.  Its also possible there were service cuts or fare changes (for example, Metromover used to run 24/7 for free, which may not be the case now).  Without more information, its hard to see why the numbers range or draw any conclusions that are weighted in facts.

There are probably a couple of hundred or more systems on the list.  Statistically, one would expect to find some variances but no mode consistently failed as greatly as the "AG" ( Automated Guideway) category which is pretty amazing considering they already have near the bottom traffic counts to begin with.  As I said to CS above, the economy doesn't explain the variances since other systems in the same cities didn't share these statistics.  I find blaming the economy odd also because one might actually expect increased ridership of these systems due to their supposed affordability versus the auto.  Did it ever occur to you that the low ridership numbers and continuing exceptional declines common to these systems is a result of the concept just not working?

[avonjax]

Why single out the skyway?  Didn't a drop in service occur over the last year, with service now ending at 7pm?  The fare was also raised to $0.50. We already know that its screwed up with poor service and transit system integration.

Lake, the above is the schedule following the traffic.  Little traffic leads to a reduced schedule.  Don't blame the schedule, blame the traffic.  As to the other points, the fare (Really, how much lower than 50 cents could it be?  This hardly makes in unaffordable.  Most parking meters cost a lot more than this!) and system integration issues were not issues when it was built and traffic is off over 90% from projections for the AS BUILT EXISTING COMPLETED system.  As to poor management, consider the same management would run an expanded system.  So, we should expect more of the same.  Another reason not to invest further.

We also know the original estimates were cooked for the proposed larger system and the 2.5 mile system that was built. 

No surprise to me.  How about pushing for a grand jury investigation.  You just accused the consultant of lying and not delivering what they were paid to do.  Again, why do you think history won't repeat itself with an expansion?  I am sure of it because it can't be justified otherwise.

My predicition for the rest of the year is a continuation of a drop in ridership numbers, with JTA proposing to eliminate Saturday service.  Short of shutting it down and repaying the government the $184 million it cost to construct it, the only way to turn these numbers around would be better integration and efficiency.

We do agree on a continued traffic drop, but not on what to do next.  I say cut our losses, abandon it, and pursue much better alternatives.  I still have not seen one actual citation of a document proving that the workers can't be released and that the Feds would penalize us.  Even if true, I am sure we can negotiate something without penalties if we endeavored on a new and better mass transit alternative.  The $ky-high-way was a pork barrel project ("experiment" to its apologists) that failed immensely and no one should have to keep it going on life support indefinitely at great expense to the taxpayers, both local and federal.

However, take a look at other mass transit systems during the same time period, the numbers are all over the place...
....In the end, while we can point out situations that would cause the skyway's numbers to fall, its hard to tell why Boston's BRT dropped 20%, Miami's Metromover 7.46% or San Diego's Sprinter nearly 18%.  Its also hard to explain Tampa's streetcar shooting up 40% or the Rail Runner going up 220% (although I suspect this is due to the extension of the line to Santa Fe).

My guess, is that the DTs of Miami and Detroit took a huge hit with the fall of the real estate boom.  If there is less people coming into their downtown areas now, its possible that service would drop.  Its also possible there were service cuts or fare changes (for example, Metromover used to run 24/7 for free, which may not be the case now).  Without more information, its hard to see why the numbers range or draw any conclusions that are weighted in facts.

There are probably a couple of hundred or more systems on the list.  Statistically, one would expect to find some variances but no mode consistently failed as greatly as the "AG" ( Automated Guideway) category which is pretty amazing considering they already have near the bottom traffic counts to begin with.  As I said to CS above, the economy doesn't explain the variances since other systems in the same cities didn't share these statistics.  I find blaming the economy odd also because one might actually expect increased ridership of these systems due to their supposed affordability versus the auto.  Did it ever occur to you that the low ridership numbers and continuing exceptional declines common to these systems is a result of the concept just not working?

Ok
Lets get out the wreaking ball and tear the skyway down...
and lets just keep nothing but buses cause at the rate we are going that's all we will ever have here anyway.
And maybe you will have fun riding the bus.
I HATE your poll because as previously pointed out it's all negative and you will never agree with anyone on this site who likes the skyway anyway.
So I kinda don't give a crap what you think.

[stjr]

Ok
Lets get out the wreaking ball and tear the skyway down...
and lets just keep nothing but buses cause at the rate we are going that's all we will ever have here anyway.
And maybe you will have fun riding the bus.
I HATE your poll because as previously pointed out it's all negative and you will never agree with anyone on this site who likes the skyway anyway.
So I kinda don't give a crap what you think.

Avon, thanks for the rational defense of the $ky-high-way.  It's thinking like that that got it built to begin with.  And, it's continued thinking like that by people like you that has me concerned about justifying any expansion of it.

By the way, if you read this thread from the beginning, you would have seen I did the poll as a parody of the proponents arguments.  If it hit your nerves, well, then maybe you need to ask why?

You have the right to ignore my opinions.  Just don't read them.  This is a discussion site and if you aren't interested in discussions of view points that differ from yours, I suggest you spend your time elsewhere.

P.S. You don't work for JTA or a $ky-high-way contractor, do you?

[avonjax]

I happen to like the system even flawed....
I would like it more, finished....
It's the backward thinking of most Jacksonville citizens that have caused any transit in Jax to fail.
And it's that same thinking that has caused them to hate the skyway...
I bet 90% of the residents of our city have never even ridden it.
So guess what it's really ok if I don't hat it.....
I know that must disturb you a great deal.
But you can't sell me on your thinking on the subject....

[avonjax]

BTW how long have you been in Jax? Just a curiosity question. No ill intent or whatever.

[stjr]

BTW how long have you been in Jax? Just a curiosity question. No ill intent or whatever.

If you read my history thread posts, you will realize it's a lifetime.

Also, if your read my extensive posts on the $ky-high-way and mass transit, you would realize it is precisely because I strongly believe in mass transit by bus and rail, that I am against expanding the $ky-high-way.  That's because (are you sitting down?) we actually agree on Jax's lack of vision and progressiveness.  Because of that, mass transit advocates are playing with very limited political capital, not to mention financial resources, and I believe the failure of the $ky-high-way has set back mass transit in Jax by decades.  Continued promotion of the expansion of this ill fated system will only further delay the implementation of really useful mass transit improvements in Jax.

P.S. I don't take these boards seriously enough to get "disturbed" and I would suggest you do the same.  Otherwise, your mental state could be taken to very agitated levels and that's bad for one's health.

[avonjax]

I just don't view the skyway with the same contempt as most of Jacksonville.
It's just the same old thing here in this city, so much is done halfway, or more often completely abandoned.
The system should have gone somewhere and I think many more people would have embraced it. But it may not have mattered because I think to many of the citizens of Jax, downtown as a whole is a meaningless hunk of concrete.
Heck I know thousands of people who NEVER leave their neighborhoods.
It's weird to me....
Anyway I still like the concept of the skyway and at some point I believe it should be completed.
Your view seems to favor ripping the whole thing down.

[avonjax]

P.S. I don't take these boards seriously enough to get "disturbed" and I would suggest you do the same.  Otherwise, your mental state could be taken to very agitated levels and that's bad for one's health.

Thanks for the advice......I now have a new mother.....

[stjr]

I just don't view the skyway with the same contempt as most of Jacksonville.
It's just the same old thing here in this city, so much is done halfway, or more often completely abandoned.
...Your view seems to favor ripping the whole thing down.

The "contempt" comes from taxpayers upset they were sold a boondoggle.  Wouldn't you be upset if you didn't get what you paid for and/or it didn't work as promised when sold?

You are right, Jax has a history of doing things half-way (how about "half-ass" to be blunt?).  I can't change that about what's been done in the past, but people like us could sure work to keep it from contining to happen.  My approach with the $ky-high-way is that no amount of "tweaking" it will get it to work and, if I take your view that it's fixable, then the $$$ are too great to be cost effective versus abandonment and starting anew with a much better mass transit system.

Which confirms your last point, yes, I do favor ripping it down and recycling it as an ocean fishing reef as we do with many of our other useless discards.

[Captain Zissou]

Good thing all the answer choices were fair and balanced.  What a joke.

[Ocklawaha]

I still have not seen one actual citation of a document proving that the workers can't be released and that the Feds would penalize us.

stjr, would it make any difference if I produced case studys? Named names? Dollars?  

Even if true, I am sure we can negotiate something without penalties if we endeavored on a new and better mass transit alternative.

With the money grab now going on around Washington, we would be in the wood shed forever!

OCKLAWAHA

[lindab]

I would be interested to see the documents. If you haven't done so somewhere else on this forum, can you provide the links or list who to call? Thanks.