The Downtown jail fallacy

[Jax_Developer]

I think replacing the jail site with another public use is a big mistake. That would include putting a convention center here. The site, in my opinion, really needs to be tax producing. That's one of the larger issues with the jail being in the location. To put another tax 0 asset on the site would not support the jail relocation efforts to the highest degree. (Not talking about the police station which I think should stay in it's location, maybe rebuilt on a smaller footprint.)

I agree with others concerns around funding towards the relocation efforts... The way that is best circumnavigated is to have these parcels be tax producing assets with private use. The convention center idea also is a little farfetched to me given our proximity to Orlando... Orlando is so much easier to get to with dozens of venues. Why compete with that? My vote is to use our water as an asset for future hotel use & further commercialization. Orlando & a large % of the US severely lacks anything like that.

[thelakelander]

I can't image so. A convention center at the jail site does nothing for the Hyatt. Plus, for that convention center to be successful, it would need an attached hotel of its own. So all it would add to is more tax money to subsidize additional competition against a convention center hotel we've already subsidized.

Wouldn't a CC at the jail site be sufficiently close to the Hyatt such that the Hyatt would be the defacto CC hotel? Especially since the Hyatt itself has convention space of its own? 

Likely not. It would not make sense for a new convention center to not have a ballroom, meeting space, etc. That alone, means we'd building these spaces to compete against these spaces that we already have in the Hyatt. Then without an attached hotel, we'd be spending hundreds of millions on something that would be substandard to the competition that does have attached hotels.

[thelakelander]

I agree with others concerns around funding towards the relocation efforts... The way that is best circumnavigated is to have these parcels be tax producing assets with private use. The convention center idea also is a little farfetched to me given our proximity to Orlando... Orlando is so much easier to get to with dozens of venues. Why compete with that? My vote is to use our water as an asset for future hotel use & further commercialization. Orlando & a large % of the US severely lacks anything like that.

The easiest and most affordable solution to the convention center issue is to renovate the Hyatt and add an exhibition hall adjacent to its existing meeting spaces and grand ballroom.  In essence, the Hyatt would become a part of the "convention center" as opposed to building every component of a new convention center and hotel complex from scratch. Every single convention center idea outside of this will require taxpayers to spend hundreds of millions more on a subsidized use that literally competes head to head with our existing heavily subsidized convention hotel/meeting complex. Also, yes....we aren't competing with the Orlandos and Atlantas of the convention market. So we don't need a new massive facility either. Jax should learn to stay within its own lane and compete within its lane.

[Steve]

This is where - despite how cool the Hardwick proposal looked, I've always thought the best solution was to combine the two blocks on bay with an exhibit hall. Doing quick Google Maps math, you can get about 250k SqFt out of that. That's big enough to host a LOT of conventions around the country, and that doesn't count the Hyatt's space already.

Now, if you somehow got the entire, 6 block site that is the current Jail and PMB, that would be about 525k SqFt. Obviously significantly larger.

My thought is that we could move on the facility attached to the Hyatt now and let the Jail/PMB conversation take the proper amount of time - 5 to 10 years. In that amount of time, you can have a facility attached to the Hyatt up and running for some time. If the convention business explodes and the new building is bursting at the seams, then you could honestly consider an expansion there. If somehow our convention business is THAT strong with 250k SqFt, then we could look at building something there and attach it - it could be one of the very few times a skywalk makes sense.

Additionally, if we had the market for that size of a facility (combined 750k SqFt plus), we'd probably need a second hotel, which would be a co-anchor on the second phase.

[marcuscnelson]

I can't image so. A convention center at the jail site does nothing for the Hyatt. Plus, for that convention center to be successful, it would need an attached hotel of its own. So all it would add to is more tax money to subsidize additional competition against a convention center hotel we've already subsidized.

Wouldn't a CC at the jail site be sufficiently close to the Hyatt such that the Hyatt would be the defacto CC hotel? Especially since the Hyatt itself has convention space of its own? 

Even when it was originally proposed to build a massive new convention center directly adjacent to the Hyatt at Ford on Bay, the DIA required proposals to include their own hotel.

I agree with others concerns around funding towards the relocation efforts... The way that is best circumnavigated is to have these parcels be tax producing assets with private use. The convention center idea also is a little farfetched to me given our proximity to Orlando... Orlando is so much easier to get to with dozens of venues. Why compete with that? My vote is to use our water as an asset for future hotel use & further commercialization. Orlando & a large % of the US severely lacks anything like that.

The easiest and most affordable solution to the convention center issue is to renovate the Hyatt and add an exhibition hall adjacent to its existing meeting spaces and grand ballroom.  In essence, the Hyatt would become a part of the "convention center" as opposed to building every component of a new convention center and hotel complex from scratch. Every single convention center idea outside of this will require taxpayers to spend hundreds of millions more on a subsidized use that literally competes head to head with our existing heavily subsidized convention hotel/meeting complex. Also, yes....we aren't competing with the Orlandos and Atlantas of the convention market. So we don't need a new massive facility either. Jax should learn to stay within its own lane and compete within its lane.

Lori Boyer has for years been chasing this pipe dream idea of the DIA's projects skyrocketing downtown land values enough to justify private investment in a massive new convention center complex at the jail site that would also give the city a huge payout by Hyatt on the City Hall parcel. I would think it would be obvious already that interest rates alone are not going to let that happen, but given the recent Daily Record article that doesn't appear to be the case.

Given the Hardwick already appears to be collapsing (unless something magical happens in the next few months) it seems most prudent to go back to where we started in 2018 but on a smaller scale, get a reasonably sized exhibition hall and renovation done at the Hyatt so we can finally focus on other things instead of pinballing the convention center around like we have for about two decades now.

My thought is that we could move on the facility attached to the Hyatt now and let the Jail/PMB conversation take the proper amount of time - 5 to 10 years. In that amount of time, you can have a facility attached to the Hyatt up and running for some time. If the convention business explodes and the new building is bursting at the seams, then you could honestly consider an expansion there. If somehow our convention business is THAT strong with 250k SqFt, then we could look at building something there and attach it - it could be one of the very few times a skywalk makes sense.

That's kind of the thing, if substantially more convention space would be successful it'd quickly become self-evident when the Hyatt facility is holding larger conventions more and more often.

I will say that I think there's some potential synergy in just having JSO renovate and occupy the Universal Marion/JEA building as their office. Tons of space, near other government facilities, doesn't require new construction. Turn the existing police building into a park for now (could move stuff like the Jazz Festival concert stage there once the City Hall site is under construction) so that ultimately the main focus is just figuring out the right way to handle spending $300 million or more on the jail situation.

[vicupstate]

I can't image so. A convention center at the jail site does nothing for the Hyatt. Plus, for that convention center to be successful, it would need an attached hotel of its own. So all it would add to is more tax money to subsidize additional competition against a convention center hotel we've already subsidized.

Wouldn't a CC at the jail site be sufficiently close to the Hyatt such that the Hyatt would be the defacto CC hotel? Especially since the Hyatt itself has convention space of its own? 

Likely not. It would not make sense for a new convention center to not have a ballroom, meeting space, etc. That alone, means we'd building these spaces to compete against these spaces that we already have in the Hyatt. Then without an attached hotel, we'd be spending hundreds of millions on something that would be substandard to the competition that does have attached hotels.

How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be? It's one diagonal block between the Hyatt and the Sheriff office. Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space. The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping.  I can see Steve's point though, the better solution is to just utilize the old City Hall Annex/Courthouse property first. 

[marcuscnelson]

Is facilitating two conventions in Jacksonville worth a billion dollars? Maybe! But we could easily reuse the City Hall site first and figure that out before we spend that money.

[thelakelander]

How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be?

Who is the competition and what are they bringing to the table? We're not in Orlando's league and won't be with a center at the jail site either. Placing that tier aside, our comparable would be convention centers in cities like Memphis, Raleigh, Norfolk, Mobile, Daytona, etc. All have hotels either directly attached or immediately adjacent. If our new product, that we've spent hundreds of millions to build, is still substandard to the competition, then the new facility is just as likely to struggle as the Prime Osborn. If we're building it to compete, then we're duplicating everything we're subsidizing with the Hyatt a few blocks away.

Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space.

It could do better if it had an attached exhibition hall. It was in foreclosure less than 10 years ago. As of now, its simply a better option locally than the Prime Osborn for many conventions due to it having the things that the Prime Osborn lacks, along with having a large ballroom.

The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping.

Adding an exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt would allow for larger groups and multiple conventions going on simultaneously. Other than someone simply dreaming of a large convention center on the jail site, it really is hard to economically justify moving the jail to subsidize such of use. It doesn't promise to do anything that a Hyatt location can't do, outside of costing taxpayers a ton of money while competing head to head with the existing heavily subsidized Hyatt facility. If we have that much money to spend, one can only imagine how that money could be invested in other downtown infrastructure and economic development needs.

[Steve]

How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be? It's one diagonal block between the Hyatt and the Sheriff office. Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space. The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping.  I can see Steve's point though, the better solution is to just utilize the old City Hall Annex/Courthouse property first. 

Realistically, especially for the mid-sized conventions we'd be targeting, it should be attached. I generally hate skywalks, but realistically it needs to be attached somehow. For my business I'm at a convention every 1-2 months, and the powers that be in the business demand this or they go elsewhere.

The only exception is I attend 1-2 a year that are in the "mega" category, ones that fill the GWCC in Atlanta, McCormick in Chicago and Javits in New York. McCormick has 1-2 hotels attached, Atlanta is building it's first (though I think you can walk inside to the Omni CNN Center), and Javits doesn't have an attached hotel. BUT, there is no one hotel that could ever hold even a majority of the convention. The last big one I went to was the National Retail Big Show in New York with 35,000 people in January. Whether or not there was an attached hotel to Javits is irrelevant - it wasn't holding 35k people. But that's a market by itself.

[Jax_Developer]

How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be? It's one diagonal block between the Hyatt and the Sheriff office. Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space. The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping.  I can see Steve's point though, the better solution is to just utilize the old City Hall Annex/Courthouse property first. 

Realistically, especially for the mid-sized conventions we'd be targeting, it should be attached. I generally hate skywalks, but realistically it needs to be attached somehow. For my business I'm at a convention every 1-2 months, and the powers that be in the business demand this or they go elsewhere.

The only exception is I attend 1-2 a year that are in the "mega" category, ones that fill the GWCC in Atlanta, McCormick in Chicago and Javits in New York. McCormick has 1-2 hotels attached, Atlanta is building it's first (though I think you can walk inside to the Omni CNN Center), and Javits doesn't have an attached hotel. BUT, there is no one hotel that could ever hold even a majority of the convention. The last big one I went to was the National Retail Big Show in New York with 35,000 people in January. Whether or not there was an attached hotel to Javits is irrelevant - it wasn't holding 35k people. But that's a market by itself.

Steve you are probably one of the more tapped in people with Convention Centers locally it sounds like. From my outward opinion, I feel like JAX, in particular, lacks significantly for us to try and capture a regional or national level convention market. I think the usual Miami, Orlando or Tampa stops are already very accessible and offer better overall hotel environments for it. I personally feel like the convention center idea needs to be approached after the downtown & JAX improve over the next 5-10 years (hopefully). Even then, I'd rather it be out of an explicit demand need than anything else because that land 'should' be tax generating.

[thelakelander]

^Here's my two cents....which have been the same for 15 years on this site now.

I'm not for sure that Jax is competing against Miami, Orlando or Tampa. Those markets are significantly larger. We should not be fooled by our consolidated population. We're closer to Grand Rapids, MI and Memphis, TN in MSA population than Miami, Orlando, Tampa, etc. We're already in the convention business. We're just losing to the Daytona Beaches, Memphis', Grand Rapids, etc. in the business and have been for quite a while. We have demand, within our tier, as we're losing our own growing events to other markets and have been for some time now. However, we do need to invest in ourselves and we're a good 20 years of talking about this as well.

As mentioned a decade ago (time flies), the convention center isn't going to turn around downtown by itself and downtown isn't going to grow to create a new market for the business (...we're already in the business, we just suck at it). So I like to frame the conversation around better utilizing our existing assets (i.e. Hyatt, centralized city of land, conversion of Prime Osborn back into a train station), to strengthen our place within the market. Getting the basics right via the 3Cs, is what results in the improved downtown environment. For now, an exhibition hall and renovated Hyatt can deliver that. 20-30 years later (if the market demands it), we can have a conversation about something significantly larger and more expensive.

[Steve]

How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be? It's one diagonal block between the Hyatt and the Sheriff office. Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space. The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping.  I can see Steve's point though, the better solution is to just utilize the old City Hall Annex/Courthouse property first. 

Realistically, especially for the mid-sized conventions we'd be targeting, it should be attached. I generally hate skywalks, but realistically it needs to be attached somehow. For my business I'm at a convention every 1-2 months, and the powers that be in the business demand this or they go elsewhere.

The only exception is I attend 1-2 a year that are in the "mega" category, ones that fill the GWCC in Atlanta, McCormick in Chicago and Javits in New York. McCormick has 1-2 hotels attached, Atlanta is building it's first (though I think you can walk inside to the Omni CNN Center), and Javits doesn't have an attached hotel. BUT, there is no one hotel that could ever hold even a majority of the convention. The last big one I went to was the National Retail Big Show in New York with 35,000 people in January. Whether or not there was an attached hotel to Javits is irrelevant - it wasn't holding 35k people. But that's a market by itself.

Steve you are probably one of the more tapped in people with Convention Centers locally it sounds like. From my outward opinion, I feel like JAX, in particular, lacks significantly for us to try and capture a regional or national level convention market. I think the usual Miami, Orlando or Tampa stops are already very accessible and offer better overall hotel environments for it. I personally feel like the convention center idea needs to be approached after the downtown & JAX improve over the next 5-10 years (hopefully). Even then, I'd rather it be out of an explicit demand need than anything else because that land 'should' be tax generating.

There are WAY more conventions that can fit into under 250k SqFt facility than those that require more than 250k. Further, there's way more that can fit into 500k than those that require more than 500k. Orlando and their massive 2M+ SqFt space competes with Chicago, Vegas, and that's about it in terms of shows that need more than 1M contiguous space.

For large shows like that, and even in that tier that's around 750k SqFt of space (Atlanta for example), there are a lot of other city drivers that contribute to the space. Atlanta is home to the busiest airport in the world - it only makes sense that it has a convention center that can scale in that regard.

One of the reasons I like the concept of 250k SqFt attached to the Hyatt then - only if the demand there is high - we look to the PMB/Jail site in a decade plus where you could fit another hotel and another 500k SqFt or so, is that it could enable hosting two small to mid-side conventions at the same time. The positive there is - and this is when a better funded CVB and more large hotels come into play, they can work with conference organizers to shift things by a day in some cases as to not flood things like popular after-hours event spaces, traffic in and out, etc.

I feel like the DIA in this regard may be letting perfect be the enemy of good. Sure, a fancy facility on the site of the PMB/Jail might be nice, but we're losing our opportunity cost.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ I am thinking a convention center properly designed can accommodate one large convention or several smaller ones with movable walls/dividers.  I have seen this many times with hotels and convention centers.  My point is a larger building with flexible walls gives you the best of all worlds, hosting multiple smaller conventions or one large one.

That said, I don't see Jax competing for larger conventions for many of the reasons cited:  Lack of flights, nothing to do downtown after hours, a lack of attractions (when conventioneers want to bring family members along) or at least robust promotion of the ones we have and very poor public transit, both urban (around a convention center/downtown area) and to activities of interest outside of downtown.

We should first take the hundreds of millions of dollars and address the above before we pitch for a new convention center... let's not get the cart before the horse like we did with the current convention center.  We see how that worked out.  Wonder how many convention centers are essentially surrounded by a dead zone for decades.  Total incompetence, par for downtown projects.

[thelakelander]

^ This is why you put an exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt. This doesn't require the investment of a new convention center from scratch. You use your existing assets to serve the need for the foreseeable future and for a fraction of the costs.

[marcuscnelson]

I find myself thinking about the real inconsistency that's been demonstrated throughout this sort of journey regarding convention space.

I pulled up the 2017 study (the one later cited to kibosh the convention center RFP) and noticed that it stresses the importance of incorporating the river into the convention center itself, and recommends the Courthouse site specifically because of its riverfront location, proximity to a headquarters hotel (the Hyatt) and walkability to downtown amenities.

Yet now, in 2023, Lori Boyer is saying that a convention center needs to be further from all of those things because it needs to be closer to the sports district, and then says that it shouldn't be too close to the riverfront. What happened? What is she basing that on?

Later in the study, it's interesting that the list of cities chosen for "comparative review" is:



It then proceeds to declare that we should be in the "mid range" of those chosen cities, which is why it ends up proposing a 200,000 square foot center with a 40,000 square foot ballroom and 45 meeting rooms. That's after saying that the 30 meeting planners they spoke to said that restaurants and nightlife were an important factor. So I don't see how the DIA's takeaway could then be that the convention center needs to be moved away from the nightlife area to be surrounded by highway ramps, a coffee factory, and condos. Or how Shipyards West Park can be cited as creating the best atmosphere for a convention center to be adjacent to, compared to other things, while knowing that it is likely that they're about to leave a grass crater right across the street from the nightlife area.

This is without saying anything about the ludicrous adventure we had between the Jaguars wanting the convention center to go to the Shipyards and trying to propose a consolation development for Ford on Bay.

Good grief.