Are You Okay Investing $233 Million For Lot J?

[pierre]

Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.

You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv

The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move.  If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet.  I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating.  Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city.  Jax can woller in their mess without me.

Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.

There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).

May want to cross those states off the list.

[vicupstate]

What does it say about a city that it will dramatically fund selected private enterprise (that is in competition with other private providers), while not even allowing a referundum to support needed education infrastructure? 

Unlike Miami and Minneapolis, this ISN'T for the stadium, there will be another hit to the taxpayers for that, after this fleecing is over. To say nothing of the prior fleecing for video boards and swimming pools.

 

[vicupstate]

There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).

The state of SC just incentivized relocation of the practice field and the team HQ. Moving the stadium would require state money, no SC city in the CLT metro could cover the cost or even a fraction of it. 

[Kerry]

Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.

You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv

The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move.  If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet.  I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating.  Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city.  Jax can woller in their mess without me.

Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.

There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).

May want to cross those states off the list.

Maybe so, but at least I still get walkable urbanism and urban vibrancy out of the deal.

[KenFSU]

As much as despise this proposal, I am also concerned about the future stadium ask. I certainly admire the way the Jags have done this in incremental changes as the more we have invested that is "Jags related"the harder it becomes not to cave on any larger request with the veiled threat of a move. In order to stay viable..in order to compete...there is always something of that nature.
I expect big tax dollars for stadium renovations in the future and I doubt the city says no. At that point, there will be a ton invested in the Jags. Hard to look at what has been "invested" /built and suddenly think of it with no Jags.  I would be surprised if it is worth it (hard to quantify I know) compared to what could have been done with the money.

Absolutely agree.

I also think the city and the media is conveniently discussing Lot J in a vacuum, like it's a $230 million one-and-done investment to jumpstart the stadium district.

It's not.

It's part of a much larger, multi-phase, $2.5 billion project that the Jags envision for the sports complex.

If we go down the road of subsidizing half of Phase I, there's a pretty good chance we'll literally end up putting another billion dollars into subsequent phases down the road, on top of the stadium improvements that we know are coming.



The Jags lease expires in ten years, and I have zero doubt that they want to remain in Jacksonville (while continuing to have a secondary presence in London). That said, before pumping $270 million into our NFL district (inclusive of the Hart Bridge ramp removal), it would be nice to have a roadmap of the future asks that the Jags envision making of the city, as well as some good faith assurances that if X conditions are met, we can count on having the franchise anchoring the proposed Shipyards district well beyond 2029.   

[pierre]

What does it say about a city that it will dramatically fund selected private enterprise (that is in competition with other private providers), while not even allowing a referundum to support needed education infrastructure? 

Unlike Miami and Minneapolis, this ISN'T for the stadium, there will be another hit to the taxpayers for that, after this fleecing is over. To say nothing of the prior fleecing for video boards and swimming pools.

Ok. Here's one.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/18/rangers-stadium-cost-taxpayers-1-billion/92357198/

And the city is helping fund an entertainment district next door.

[thelakelander]

Based off the past partnership deals at and around the stadium, assume at least COJ funding 50% of anything proposed in the future.

[KenFSU]

^Curry claims he would use any money from a JEA sale to make Jacksonville a completely debt-free city (with an additional $800 million in a lock box accruing interest into the city coffers), and that no portion of the proceeds would go to Lot J.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/mayor-curry-says-a-jea-sale-could-make-the-city-debt-free-but-says-hes-not-involved-in-decision-making/77-af7d106e-9c6c-420b-af81-caa586644f17

That said, certainly doesn't mean you couldn't use the proceeds from a JEA sale to pay off the city's debts, and then later build up the Shipyards on the back of new debt or a new half-cent sales tax once BJP and pensions are paid down.

[vicupstate]

What does it say about a city that it will dramatically fund selected private enterprise (that is in competition with other private providers), while not even allowing a referundum to support needed education infrastructure? 

Unlike Miami and Minneapolis, this ISN'T for the stadium, there will be another hit to the taxpayers for that, after this fleecing is over. To say nothing of the prior fleecing for video boards and swimming pools.

Ok. Here's one.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/18/rangers-stadium-cost-taxpayers-1-billion/92357198/

And the city is helping fund an entertainment district next door.

The article only refers to a $1 billion stadium, but regardless that is insane deal too.     

[pierre]

What does it say about a city that it will dramatically fund selected private enterprise (that is in competition with other private providers), while not even allowing a referundum to support needed education infrastructure? 

Unlike Miami and Minneapolis, this ISN'T for the stadium, there will be another hit to the taxpayers for that, after this fleecing is over. To say nothing of the prior fleecing for video boards and swimming pools.

Ok. Here's one.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/18/rangers-stadium-cost-taxpayers-1-billion/92357198/

And the city is helping fund an entertainment district next door.

The article only refers to a $1 billion stadium, but regardless that is insane deal too.     

https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/texas-rangers-announced-250-million-entertainment-district-next-stadium/

[vicupstate]

So $500mm of the $1 billion spent on the stadium, and $100 miilion of the $250mm entertainment district.

Insane. At least the ones paying for it, got to vote on it.

[Snaketoz]

Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.

You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv

The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move.  If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet.  I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating.  Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city.  Jax can woller in their mess without me.

Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.

There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).

May want to cross those states off the list.

Maybe so, but at least I still get walkable urbanism and urban vibrancy out of the deal.

Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has.  If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto.  There is room.  "They" are all moving out.  Jacksonville is fine with me.  I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia.  It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different.  I like having room.  I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house.  You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy.  Jacksonville has plenty.  Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.

[acme54321]

Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.

You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv

The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move.  If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet.  I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating.  Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city.  Jax can woller in their mess without me.

Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.

There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).

May want to cross those states off the list.

Maybe so, but at least I still get walkable urbanism and urban vibrancy out of the deal.

Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has.  If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto.  There is room.  "They" are all moving out.  Jacksonville is fine with me.  I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia.  It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different.  I like having room.  I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house.  You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy.  Jacksonville has plenty.  Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.

He knows all of that, he lives in the suburbs.

[FlaBoy]

As much as despise this proposal, I am also concerned about the future stadium ask. I certainly admire the way the Jags have done this in incremental changes as the more we have invested that is "Jags related"the harder it becomes not to cave on any larger request with the veiled threat of a move. In order to stay viable..in order to compete...there is always something of that nature.
I expect big tax dollars for stadium renovations in the future and I doubt the city says no. At that point, there will be a ton invested in the Jags. Hard to look at what has been "invested" /built and suddenly think of it with no Jags.  I would be surprised if it is worth it (hard to quantify I know) compared to what could have been done with the money.

Absolutely agree.

I also think the city and the media is conveniently discussing Lot J in a vacuum, like it's a $230 million one-and-done investment to jumpstart the stadium district.

It's not.

It's part of a much larger, multi-phase, $2.5 billion project that the Jags envision for the sports complex.

If we go down the road of subsidizing half of Phase I, there's a pretty good chance we'll literally end up putting another billion dollars into subsequent phases down the road, on top of the stadium improvements that we know are coming.



The Jags lease expires in ten years, and I have zero doubt that they want to remain in Jacksonville (while continuing to have a secondary presence in London). That said, before pumping $270 million into our NFL district (inclusive of the Hart Bridge ramp removal), it would be nice to have a roadmap of the future asks that the Jags envision making of the city, as well as some good faith assurances that if X conditions are met, we can count on having the franchise anchoring the proposed Shipyards district well beyond 2029.

There are discussions of bed taxes paying for this but I worry that we won't have any money left for the roof that the Jags will want to put on the stadium in 2030 or the convention center we allegedly want.

Is Lot J an easier environmental clean up in comparison to the other Shipyard lots such as X near A. Phillip Randolph?

[Snufflee]

Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.

You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv

The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move.  If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet.  I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating.  Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city.  Jax can woller in their mess without me.

Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.

There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).

May want to cross those states off the list.

Maybe so, but at least I still get walkable urbanism and urban vibrancy out of the deal.

Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has.  If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto.  There is room.  "They" are all moving out.  Jacksonville is fine with me.  I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia.  It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different.  I like having room.  I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house.  You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy.  Jacksonville has plenty.  Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.

Anecdotal, I have lived in NYC, LA, and San Diego, if it wasn't for my wife's job we would move in a heartbeat. I hate this area, hate that downtown is a one and done if I venture that way for an event, hate that I can't walk everywhere or get an uber to go out for a night on the town. Hate that as an adult I have nearly zero options Monday through Thursday to be out after 10.

Lot J will be more of the same. If I go to a show at Daily's Place and the concert ends at 10, will LIVE be open to 3 am on a Monday? Or will it be more of the same, drive to downtown for a one off event and drive home...