Re-evaluating the Skyway

[Shwaz]

hat is what they do in Boston for Patriots game. You can take the rail out to Foxborough, but it is a flat fee of $20 or $25, not the standard fare.

That would be a little too steep for the skyway maybe more like $7 which is currently the JTA shuttle cost from the downtown lot's.

The JTA service from the burb's is only $12.

Lake / Ock was there ever an estimated cost for the stadium extension or is it just a cost per mile equation?

[Doctor_K]

Hell they could probably get away with $5 gameday round trips to and from the stadium/sportsplex on that propsed extension.  People'd use it 'cause it'd be cheaper than parking in the $10 and $20 lots around the stadium area.  I'd do it!

[thelakelander]

I found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

Limousines would be cheaper than the Skyway

The Florida Times-Union - Monday, January 6, 1997
Author: Ronald L. Littlepage, Times-Union columnist

No, you are not dreaming.

Yes, it is a nightmare.

The folks at the "we screwed up the roadways and the bus system, what can we do next?" Jacksonville Transportation Authority are making their plans for 1998.

At the top of the list is dumping more money down the rathole -- my apologies to rats everywhere -- popularly known as the Automated Riderless Express.

Never mind that most of the time the cars of the little train that couldn't, when it happens to be running, go back and forth empty.

Never mind that when the 2.5mile system is finally completed late this year, the official price tag will be $185 million of taxpayer money.

Go ahead and figure it out. That comes to almost $75 million per mile.

As has been pointed out before, it would have been cheaper to hire chauffeured limousines to carry the few people who ride the Skyway to their destinations.

From the beginning, the silly train has been billed as a "demonstration project," which is how the JTA got the federal government to ante up a pile of money so that people in places like Wyoming would help us folks in Jacksonville pay for the thing.

Now that the "demonstration" has proven to be a flop, you'd think that would be the end of it.

No.

The JTA is seriously considering further demonstrating its ability to screw up by spending $85 million more to extend the Skyway to Alltel Stadium .

This will get interesting.

Mayor John Delaney, who has appointed some of his buddies to the JTA board, prides himself on fulfilling campaign promises.

Some of us remember what he said about the Skyway when he was running for office in 1995.

He called it a "disaster" and a "turkey." His campaign literature said, "We're through building the people mover." He pledged not to put any more local money into the project.

Because the opposition of a mayor, particularly a popular one like Delaney, would likely end any talk of extending the Skyway , the question becomes: Will Delaney stick by his promises or will he undergo a conversion at the altar of the Skyway as his predecessor did once he was in office?

The JTA is pushing the Skyway extension to Alltel Stadium as a way to get fans to Jaguar games and as a shuttle for downtown workers, who the JTA hopes to entice to park there during the week.

Forget it.

For three years now, we've proven that fans can get to Jaguar games quite nicely, thank you.

As far as downtown workers, $85 million would hire a lot of limousine drivers.

Gee. Shuttle buses would be even cheaper.

I do believe a study would be needed for extending the skyway to the stadium.  If its ever done, a new plan should not include the overbuilding the structure and it should be dropped down to grade level, where possible (ex. between Marsh Street and A. Philip Randolph), to reduce costs.

[Steve]

^Agreed.

Also, I think a better case for a skyway extension could be made depending on what happens with the Shipyards.  I can't make the case for it now with the fact that you have to drive downtown to get it.  I only see it used for about 10 events a year right now.

I know some hasve suggessted it for the arena/ballpark stuff, but parking and traffic is not really a hassle for these.

[Shwaz]

I found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

This article is from 1997 and I thought in recent discussion's there were lower estimates and amusement park / private companies that offered bid's for cheaper extensions.

[JeffreyS]

Add Shipyards, Convention center and Bay street town center to Stadium, Met Park, Wolfson Park,the Jacksonville Arena, Maxwell house, Police building, Hyatt,  Berkman I and  II   and they could come together to make this a useful extension.

[thelakelander]

I found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

This article is from 1997 and I thought in recent discussion's there were lower estimates and amusement park / private companies that offered bid's for cheaper extensions.

This is why the idea would have to undergo a study before moving forward.  All we've had on site is "discussions."  To my knowledge, there have been no official bids sent to JTA to extend the skyway to the stadium this millennium. 

[Joe]

I found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

I'm almost positive that he made that up. He just took the $75 million per/mile figure and extrapolated it outward by the 1.1-1.2 miles necessary to reach the arena district.

Of course, this totally ignores the fact that the skyway's pricetag included the extremely expensive bridge crossing, the automated control center, the repair building, the re-build of the intial leg, the total over-engineering of the system, etc. etc. etc.

As Oklawaha and other's have pointed out, you could theoretically extend the skyway for as little as $15 million per mile, which is cheaper than most road widenings.

That being said, I really go back and forth on my opinion of the skyway. On one hand, I sometimes think that it would be a huge success if it only went somewhere (like San Marco, Riverside Ave, and the Stadium). On the other hand, I often feel like the technology is so medicore that the skyway couldn't even really cope with the high demand anyway. The system often feels overburdened the few times there is high demand during special events.

[Steve]

Keep in mind that the vehicles and all stations are designed to have two cars (I think it's two) in between the front and back cars now.

The main issue with the stations is the god awful turnstiles.  Most cities have addressed this through the use of transit cards of some sorts.  Not really practical in Jacksonville unless we connect it to something.

[Lucasjj]

^$20 a person?

I believe so. According to Wikipedia it is a freight line owned by CSX, and is only a commuter stop in Foxboro when used for Gillette Stadium events. From what I found on forums online, people said it is a bargain since parking will run upwards to $45 a game. I guess it just depends on how many people are in the car as to whether it is worth it.

This obviously would be high for here, but it shows charging a fee for a game day line is done elsewhere.

[thelakelander]

I found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

I'm almost positive that he made that up. He just took the $75 million per/mile figure and extrapolated it outward by the 1.1-1.2 miles necessary to reach the arena district.

Of course, this totally ignores the fact that the skyway's pricetag included the extremely expensive bridge crossing, the automated control center, the repair building, the re-build of the intial leg, the total over-engineering of the system, etc. etc. etc.

As Oklawaha and other's have pointed out, you could theoretically extend the skyway for as little as $15 million per mile, which is cheaper than most road widenings.

That being said, I really go back and forth on my opinion of the skyway. On one hand, I sometimes think that it would be a huge success if it only went somewhere (like San Marco, Riverside Ave, and the Stadium). On the other hand, I often feel like the technology is so medicore that the skyway couldn't even really cope with the high demand anyway. The system often feels overburdened the few times there is high demand during special events.

I agree, but you would still need a study and a solid price estimate before breaking ground.

[thelakelander]

This obviously would be high for here, but it shows chariging a fee for a game day line is done elsewhere.

Its a good example and it would be a great way to generate extra income to reduce O&M costs.

[Shwaz]

This is why the idea would have to undergo a study before moving forward.

Makes sense.

[stjr]

At $20 a person, I'll just pile a few family and friends in the car and pay the $25 to $30 parking fees near the stadium or walk for 30 minutes from a cheaper lot (i.e. that comes to $20 an hour for a short walk and a little exercise!).  Besides, what's wrong with the buses JTA has been running for 70% less!  Maybe a few more parking garages at the stadium/arena area would be a far more efficient use of investment capital than the $ky-high-way.  That, too, needs study.  We could connect them to Downtown for week day use with a street car line for a lot less hassle and costs with better results.

Even at $15 million a mile (A very speculative and probably unrealistically low number - heck, we will pay the consultants that much before even bidding the damn thing   ) and 10,000 riders a game (I doubt this could even be handled by the $ky-high-way in a 30 to 60 minute pregame or postgame crowd crunch), by the time you deduct maintenance and operations, it likely will just ramp up the current losses.  Don't forget, the support columns may wipe out a full lane of traffic to and from the stadium.  I am sure Wayne would love that "improvement".  And, the required "intersection" with the Hart Bridge ramps needs to be engineered as well as crossing Hogan's Creek.

Lastly, the question that $ky-high-way proponents continue to miss:  How does the greater Jax community benefit from this football fan fantasy ride?  Good luck selling it at the ballot box.

[tufsu1]

the problem with the JTA buses is that they aren't allowed to run them anymore...you can thank GWB and his administration for changing the rules such that public companies must let private suppliers offer the service first (at whatever cost they deem necessary).