Phoenix Light Rail Ridership Soaring

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

http://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructure/gov-phoenix-sun-belt-light-rail.html

Phoenix in 7 years has risen to over 44,000 riders a day.


Pheonix is A LOT larger than Jax but interesting to see rail take off there in a very very spread out and sprawling city/metro.

[thelakelander]

What's happening in Phoenix is what happened in other large Sunbelt sprawlers like Dallas and Houston. In 10 years, Houston's line has grown to 12.8 miles and now averages over 45k riders a day. DART's first line in Dallas opened in 1996.  Now they have an 85 mile LRT system attracting 102k riders a day.

[Ocklawaha]

I think had the city listened back in 84' Jacksonville would be somewhere around the 30 mile mark today... As opposed to 2.4! These numbers are as Lake said, pretty universal in the industry. Many of the Sunbelt sprawlers are no more or even less dense then Jacksonville and in a number of cases smaller then Jacksonville. With the exception of Tampa, success rides the rails and even in Tampa, Billions $ in new TOD sprung to life along those tracks.

TIME TO PULL YOUR HEAD OUT JACKSONVILLE! GET ER' DONE!

[CCMjax]

I think had the city listened back in 84' Jacksonville would be somewhere around the 30 mile mark today... As opposed to 2.4! These numbers are as Lake said, pretty universal in the industry. Many of the Sunbelt sprawlers are no more or even less dense then Jacksonville and in a number of cases smaller then Jacksonville. With the exception of Tampa, success rides the rails and even in Tampa, Billions $ in new TOD sprung to life along those tracks.

TIME TO PULL YOUR HEAD OUT JACKSONVILLE! GET ER' DONE!

A lot of people absolutely hate the idea of anything they are not familiar with.  It is interesting to read about all the opposition that cities like Pheonix, Charlotte, Dallas, etc. faced prior to constructing these LRT systems with the "rail doesn't work in car cities" argument and now their riderships are increasing every year it seams like and the neighborhoods that were once car-centric communities are now changing.  People are finally getting used to it and thinking "wow this actually makes sense."  People like what they are familiar with.  It's similar to the opposition that roundabouts face before they are constructed.  The people opposing them are the ones not familiar with them or they work for companies that benefit from other systems.

I think the cost argument is absurd.  10 times more expensive for 1 mile of LRT vs Highway?  The highway number didn't even include the cost of purchasing the property to build it while the LRT number did.  Why not compare apples to apples?  And how much property do you really need to purchase to convert a traffic lane into track?  In many cases the LRT systems can run on existing infrastructure that just needs to be converted.  Funny how people tinker with numbers to argue their point.

The answer as we move forward is not more highways, it is more high-capacity transit.  I believe every metro area currently over a million people will have some form of commuter rail in the next 30 to 50 years because it will be a necessity.  Buses don't transport people from outlying areas to DT like rail does.  I lived 4 miles from downtown Chicago and I took the train downtown every day for work.  The same commute by bus took twice as long so there is a benefit in rail vs bus.

[ProjectMaximus]

What's happening in Phoenix is what happened in other large Sunbelt sprawlers like Dallas and Houston. In 10 years, Houston's line has grown to 12.8 miles and now averages over 45k riders a day. DART's first line in Dallas opened in 1996.  Now they have an 85 mile LRT system attracting 102k riders a day.

Of the three in question, I've only used DART's light rail. And to me it was extremely effective, though woefully underutilized.
Houston's rail network seems to be headed in the right direction but I've only taken the bus.
Never been to Phoenix.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't know when you rode DART, but I spent an entire day with them. The rush hours are absolutely jammed packed, in one train they were actually joking that they needed those 'pusher' folks used in Japan to pack the cars. You literally couldn't move, then a guy with a bike gets on, the whole crowd just surged back EVERYONE SPOONING. Nobody really complained and this seems to be their standard, though since my last visit they have added center cars to the trains.

ProjectMaximus is right about the cost numbers, BRT for example won't cost the road RofW, or highway furnishings and it seldom includes the buses themselves. LRT is traditionally priced as a turn key operation, RofW, track, wire, cars, maintenance, etc.

[CCMjax]

I don't know when you rode DART, but I spent an entire day with them. The rush hours are absolutely jammed packed, in one train they were actually joking that they needed those 'pusher' folks used in Japan to pack the cars. You literally couldn't move, then a guy with a bike gets on, the whole crowd just surged back EVERYONE SPOONING. Nobody really complained and this seems to be their standard, though since my last visit they have added center cars to the trains.

ProjectMaximus is right about the cost numbers, BRT for example won't cost the road RofW, or highway furnishings and it seldom includes the buses themselves. LRT is traditionally priced as a turn key operation, RofW, track, wire, cars, maintenance, etc.

Talking price, there are so many factors that go into the price of LRT though.  I think everyone knows LRT is much more expensive than bus or highway but by how much is what I'm really questioning.  In Phoenix it looks like they constructed on existing road lanes for example, same in Detroit.  However, in Charlotte, they constructed on old rail lines I believe.  In Jacksonville, wouldn't it be cheaper to add tracks to the existing rail line from Orange Park to downtown rather than ripping up Blanding Blvd for example?  Not sure if the owner of the existing tracks would play nice but it just seems like a better option than trying to construct something that interferes with traffic at every intersection during and after construction.  Also, I'm assuming the technology and trains themselves are a huge chunk of the cost and maybe contractor's unfamiliarity with the type of construction also plays into the high construction costs.

[Ocklawaha]

Not really. Several of the major industrial contractors have specialized rail divisions, Archer-Wester and Balfour Beatty, are just two examples. For engineers and consultants the same applies, Harvey Stone of Stone Consulting (a friend) is actually getting moved in right here in Florida. Track on existing right-of-way such as the old F&J From the Union Street Warehouse to Gateway Plaza would run around the $5M per mile price IF we didn't add a whole shelf of extras. One area that would hike the price is signaling, which can be costly but those costs can sometimes be offset by going to signaled single track with passing sidings. Frankly, right here at MJ we very likely have the talent, experience or quick access right here in house. 

[CCMjax]

Not really. Several of the major industrial contractors have specialized rail divisions, Archer-Wester and Balfour Beatty, are just two examples. For engineers and consultants the same applies, Harvey Stone of Stone Consulting (a friend) is actually getting moved in right here in Florida. Track on existing right-of-way such as the old F&J From the Union Street Warehouse to Gateway Plaza would run around the $5M per mile price IF we didn't add a whole shelf of extras. One area that would hike the price is signaling, which can be costly but those costs can sometimes be offset by going to signaled single track with passing sidings. Frankly, right here at MJ we very likely have the talent, experience or quick access right here in house.

What do you think is the best option for light rail and what starter routes in Jax eventually?  I'm talking commuter rail, not streetcar just servicing the core.

[ProjectMaximus]

I don't know when you rode DART, but I spent an entire day with them. The rush hours are absolutely jammed packed, in one train they were actually joking that they needed those 'pusher' folks used in Japan to pack the cars. You literally couldn't move, then a guy with a bike gets on, the whole crowd just surged back EVERYONE SPOONING. Nobody really complained and this seems to be their standard, though since my last visit they have added center cars to the trains.

ProjectMaximus is right about the cost numbers, BRT for example won't cost the road RofW, or highway furnishings and it seldom includes the buses themselves. LRT is traditionally priced as a turn key operation, RofW, track, wire, cars, maintenance, etc.

My visits were in Dec 2012 and May of 2014.
Dallas is way down the list of passengers/mile according to wiki. Both Phoenix and Houston (which aren't exactly the benchmarks either) blow Dallas out of the water in rail ridership/mile. Anyway, I was always riding in the middle of the day and I'm not saying nobody else was riding, but often times nobody else was waiting on the platform with me. My main point was that imo the ridership does not reflect the quality of the system, cause Dallas' light rail network is pretty decent.   

[Ocklawaha]

I believe the sheer size of the Dallas system makes the PPM look lower. I see your point, but as the miles grow, especially rural miles (and DART has plenty of them) it appears to water down those numbers, even though they carry twice the passenger load annually then Phoenix or Houston. As the younger system expand the PPM figure is likely to go down. Put another way, just 85 miles of track in Dallas carry's approximately 3 times the annual passengers of the entire JTA system. Phoenix can best the whole JTA system by a million or so annual riders with just 20 miles of track, while Houston matches or betters JTA with just 12 route miles. It ought to be clear to everyone else reading our comments that rail is a MUCH more attractive alternative for Jacksonville.

[thelakelander]

^In addition, these are new and expanding systems. It's probably not fair to directly compare PPM with systems that have had a 30 to 100 years of TOD around them.  The PPM of these suburban LRT systems will increase just like DC's Metro has, as the land use and density changes around their routes, continue to densify.

[thelakelander]

Here's a few images of denser development springing up around one of the new DART LRT corridors from last October:

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

I worked in Phoenix in the Summer of 2013 and had a chance to ride the system. I worked in Houston in 2010 and rode the train downtown from the Rice Village area. I also worked in Dallas for a short time in 2014 and had the opportunity to ride the train there as well. The sheer size of the cities in Texas are unbelievable. I laugh when people say Jacksonville is spread out. Maybe the city proper is but those cities are huge. DFW is absolutely massive.

Charlotte has struggled to see growth though in their rail which is a more comparable area rather than the Dallas or Houston, even Phoenix which is a top 12 market.

[thelakelander]

Charlotte will see a big jump in ridership when the Blue line extension opens in 2017. The most successful recent example of launching LRT in a city closer to Jax's size is Salt Lake City. Launched in 1999, UTA TRAX is pulling in 68,000 riders a day now. Minneapolis (2004) is also up to 62,500 per day now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_light_rail_systems_by_ridership