JTA assesses Skyway; mulls where to go next

[Keith-N-Jax]

Doesn't Miami also have a heavy rail line? What would be the cost for getting street car started in Jax?

[thelakelander]

I was in Jacksonville this weekend, I was surprised to see the Skyway running on aSaturday....did they change the scheduling?

No but it runs on weekends every now and then, if there's an event going on in downtown.

Streetcar is an ok idea, but the Skyway needs to be extended to places and development near stations should be encouraged. Why is this not happening yet?

^Because we're broke, the skyway is obsolete, the price to extend it cost just as much as building a subway and the feds haven't given us money to go on a building spree.

[thelakelander]

Doesn't Miami also have a heavy rail line? What would be the cost for getting street car started in Jax?

Yes. In addition to a peoplemover, Miami has heavy rail, commuter rail and BRT. A modern streetcar from DT to Riverside would probably run between $35 to $50 million. A heritage streetcar could probably be done for half that cost.

[acme54321]

^ if there was a streetcar line from Avondale to Springfield, it would go through downtown...as such, folks would not be required to transfer to the Skyway.  In fact, having the Skyway go up Hogan Street and a streetcar say up Newnan might make a lot of sense.

Sure, I was responding to Jason's post that the skyway connect the historic neighborhoods to DT and then the system would carry on by a transfer to streetcar lines that ran around each neighborhood.

Personally I'd rather see the skyway eliminated and be replaced with a streetcar.  I don't like the elevated concrete mess running through downtown.

[Jax Friend]

I hate to keep drawing the parallel, but in Disney's case their monorail is part of the identity and branding of the whole experience. Regardless of how anyone feels about the Skyway it has become fused with the identity and brand of downtown, and I see that as a strength. It is one more box that we get to check off regarding features of great urban areas. It is dysfunctional, expensive, and antiquated, but the qualitative function it plays could be of hidden wealth to the community. I'm 100% in the streetcar/elevated rail hybrid camp. It is by far the best way to salvage the current status quo.

[tufsu1]

Doesn't Miami also have a heavy rail line? What would be the cost for getting street car started in Jax?

Yes. In addition to a peoplemover, Miami has heavy rail, commuter rail and BRT. A modern streetcar from DT to Riverside would probably run between $35 to $50 million. A heritage streetcar could probably be done for half that cost.

and heavy rail by comparison would likely cost over $200 million just for the leg from Riverside to Downtown

[ProjectMaximus]

I was in Jacksonville this weekend, I was surprised to see the Skyway running on aSaturday....did they change the scheduling?

No but it runs on weekends every now and then, if there's an event going on in downtown.

Yep...it was running for the "Art in the Park" event at Hemming.

[icarus]

http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-maintenance/on-track-maintenance/usdot-substantial-demand-underscores-need-for-tiger-grants.html?channel=

Has JTA given up on the Tiger grant process?

[fieldafm]

http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-maintenance/on-track-maintenance/usdot-substantial-demand-underscores-need-for-tiger-grants.html?channel=

Has JTA given up on the Tiger grant process?

JTA's 2015 TIGER grant application was a request to extend the Mobility Works program designed to improve pedestrian and cycling infrastructure as well as ADA compliance in certain high risk sections in town, called Opportunity Corridors (as you may be aware, Jacksonville ranks as one of the most dangerous cities for pedestrians nationwide).

You can view the application here:

http://www.jtafla.com/PDF/TigerGrant_2015/JTA_TIGER_Final_060315.pdf

[icarus]

Thanks. This makes a lot of sense and hopefully, with our ranking in that area ... we receive this grant application.

[thelakelander]

Good luck.

Applications to the U.S. Department of Transportation's seventh round of Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) grants totaled $9.8 billion, almost 20 times the $500 million set aside for the program...

So is JTA planning to extend the Skyway to Brooklyn with their own money or is that plan off the table since they could not win TIGER grant money?

[CCMjax]

Good luck.

Applications to the U.S. Department of Transportation's seventh round of Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) grants totaled $9.8 billion, almost 20 times the $500 million set aside for the program...

So is JTA planning to extend the Skyway to Brooklyn with their own money or is that plan off the table since they could not win TIGER grant money?

I hope they don't extend the skyway at all.  What skyway in this country actually serves its purpose efficiently?  Is there some reason why the bus on Riverside does not get people downtown efficiently?

[Ocklawaha]

Clearly the supporting infra of the Skyway was overdesigned and could support larger duty car sets. The question remaains if there is a longer articulated car that can negotiate the Acosta and the turns along the route.

An interview with a sales person at Bombardier would be great right now.

That monorail can't work as mass transportation is misleading. It can. If measured by ridership, the Orlando monorail would be the United States' ninth heaviest-used rapid transit system*, ahead of Los Angeles' Red and Purple lines. Roughly 150,000 people use the network each day in America's most visited travel destination, meaning that it plays an important role in shaping the American vision about how transit should work. The trouble we face is the astronomical cost of the Skyway Monorail as designed. As Lakelander has said, as built, under crush loads, it can't perform the minimum tasks of delivering people to games and events.

The Light-Rail possibility is there, but the Acosta will be the Achilles heel in that conversion. Next time you ride notice the clearance on the roofline next to the bridge piers on the west/north side of the river... Maybe 2' feet... MAYBE! And these are micro-cars.

As for the streetcar charts, somebody needs to inform the public that the idea that modern streetcar or heritage streetcar DOES NOT NEED TO OPERATE IN THE STREET COMPETING WITH AUTOMOBILES! THINK MEDIANS! Green space with rails. If an elevated monorail is an icon of our city, then an elevated portion of a streetcar system can do the same thing.

It should also be noted that even if we went with the lower cost heritage streetcars, they typically operated with 'trailer' cars. Meaning on game days 2-4 car trains would be possible and each train would have a greater capacity for passengers then the entire current fleet of Skyway cars. ONE OPERATOR per train.

Extend the elevated sections to north of State Street, East of Main, and South of the FEC in San Marco, bring the rest down at the Brooklyn Barns and convert it to streetcar/LRT. Get the rest on the side of the road, through the alleys, waterfronts, medians and abandoned rail right-of-ways and you have a design for success and urban growth.

*Meaning heavy rail, subway.

[For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A]

Clearly the supporting infra of the Skyway was overdesigned and could support larger duty car sets. The question remaains if there is a longer articulated car that can negotiate the Acosta and the turns along the route.

An interview with a sales person at Bombardier would be great right now.

That monorail can't work as mass transportation is misleading. It can. If measured by ridership, the Orlando monorail would be the United States' ninth heaviest-used rapid transit system*, ahead of Los Angeles' Red and Purple lines. Roughly 150,000 people use the network each day in America's most visited travel destination, meaning that it plays an important role in shaping the American vision about how transit should work. The trouble we face is the astronomical cost of the Skyway Monorail as designed. As Lakelander has said, as built, under crush loads, it can't perform the minimum tasks of delivering people to games and events.

The Light-Rail possibility is there, but the Acosta will be the Achilles heel in that conversion. Next time you ride notice the clearance on the roofline next to the bridge piers on the west/north side of the river... Maybe 2' feet... MAYBE! And these are micro-cars.

As for the streetcar charts, somebody needs to inform the public that the idea that modern streetcar or heritage streetcar DOES NOT NEED TO OPERATE IN THE STREET COMPETING WITH AUTOMOBILES! THINK MEDIANS! Green space with rails. If an elevated monorail is an icon of our city, then an elevated portion of a streetcar system can do the same thing.

It should also be noted that even if we went with the lower cost heritage streetcars, they typically operated with 'trailer' cars. Meaning on game days 2-4 car trains would be possible and each train would have a greater capacity for passengers then the entire current fleet of Skyway cars. ONE OPERATOR per train.

Extend the elevated sections to north of State Street, East of Main, and South of the FEC in San Marco, bring the rest down at the Brooklyn Barns and convert it to streetcar/LRT. Get the rest on the side of the road, through the alleys, waterfronts, medians and abandoned rail right-of-ways and you have a design for success and urban growth.

*Meaning heavy rail, subway.

Long term this makes sense. I like the monorail. It is quick and works efficiently. The problem is it is far easier for me to jump in my car from DT and go to Southbank than it is to ride the Skyway. I think extending this thing to Brooklyn is vital and attempting to build up LaVilla with some TOD around the Skyway. I really believe that could be closer than we think with some development similar to what is happening in Brooklyn (just hopefully better with mixed use). I think the first move is a street car into Riverside within the decade with a transfer to the monorail and then consider switching from monorail if it makes sense at that point. Similarly, depending upon how the Shipyards develop, street car is an option out towards the stadium. However, TOD should be occurring now in North and South banks and if it is not, I would be hard pressed to believe it will occur by just adding some rail. Until it is not worth it to park in DT, and easier to take transit (when there are actually people living DT), then light rail outside the core does not make sense IMO because people will still drive because it is still far easier.

[Ocklawaha]

The Key for light-rail outside of downtown, (and frankly considering our size I'd suggest 'rapid streetcar') is to locate it along traditionally clogged streets during the morning and evening rush hours. Roosevelt all the way into OP is an example, JTB and 95/1/FEC RofW from downtown to JTB is another. Local streetcar into northwest JAX and north into Springfield would support a large transit dependent population as well. That would equate to:

4 local lines
NW JAX
SPRINGFIELD-GATEWAY
BROOKLYN-RIVERSIDE*
SAN MARCO SQUARE

2 commuting lines
*extension of the BROOKLYN-RIVERSIDE line to OP
splitting from the SAN MARCO SQUARE route around the Hilton, for JTB and Town Center - Beaches (ultimately).

All of these using exclusive lanes, medians, side of road, etc. wherever possible, and ABSOLUTE separation on the lines that extend farther.