FDOT's First Coast Expressway

[thelakelander]

Finally.  Another voice who gets it.  It's about choices.  There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core.  Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better.

I live in the Southside too. My boys attend A middle and elementary schools. There's no difference between the Southside's schools and SJC's. I agree that it's all about choices. However, that doesn't mean fiscal irresponsibility of public tax dollars is ok. Our personal lifestyle choices should come with the personal responsibility of paying our fair share.

[thelakelander]

and btw, I noticed you didn't challenge my earlier assertion that the Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway were bad financial decisions made by Turnpike...why not?

Those roads have already paid great dividends to some land owners, construction and engineering firms. Give them 100 years and spend a few more billion connecting them to more cow pastures, orange groves, dairies, etc. and they'll pay themselves off in your great grandkid's lifetime.

[Tacachale]

Finally.  Another voice who gets it.  It's about choices.  There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core.  Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better.  I want my yard, my space, my silence.  I want low crime in communities with other families.  I can't find that in the Urban Core, and good luck trying to convince me and others like me that its any different.

It may not convince you and others like you, but I've got virtually every one of those things in San Marco, which is in the urban core. I have a yard, space, A-rated schools, and there are plenty families. As far as crime we've had a lot fewer issues than when we lived in Ponte Vedra. It's not particularly silent though, so there's that.

St. Johns County has a good school *system* (demographics), but the schools aren't different than in the demographically similar parts of Duval or Clay Counties. And most of the best individual schools in the metro area, for those who put stock in school rankings and whatnot, are in Duval. In fact, most are in or near the urban core.

Most of us here would probably agree that these things should be about choice. The disagreement here seems to be whether this expressway will improve one or more of those choices. Clearly there's debate about that. I don't really see this as a burbs-vs-core issue.

[southsider1015]

Can you please provide a link to your source of the traffic models?

Its called the Northeast Florida Regional Planning Model (NERPM)...perhaps you have heard of it?

The version I am talking about is the one adopted with the 2035 regional Long Range Transportation Plan....which included socioeconomic data endorsed by all the local governments as being consistent with their comprehensive plans.

and btw, I noticed you didn't challenge my earlier assertion that the Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway were bad financial decisions made by Turnpike...why not?

Thanks, I'll check it out.

I didn't engage you in those two projects because I'm not familiar with them, so it be hard to discuss it.  My regrets.

[southsider1015]

and btw, I noticed you didn't challenge my earlier assertion that the Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway were bad financial decisions made by Turnpike...why not?

Those roads have already paid great dividends to some land owners, construction and engineering firms. Give them 100 years and spend a few more billion connecting them to more cow pastures, orange groves, dairies, etc. and they'll pay themselves off in your great grandkid's lifetime.

Honestly, since when do engineering firms and contractors have any pull to build more roads like FCE?  What sort of leverage would they have?  If anything its FDOT and landowners.

[southsider1015]

Finally.  Another voice who gets it.  It's about choices.  There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core.  Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better.  I want my yard, my space, my silence.  I want low crime in communities with other families.  I can't find that in the Urban Core, and good luck trying to convince me and others like me that its any different.

It may not convince you and others like you, but I've got virtually every one of those things in San Marco, which is in the urban core. I have a yard, space, A-rated schools, and there are plenty families. As far as crime we've had a lot fewer issues than when we lived in Ponte Vedra. It's not particularly silent though, so there's that.

St. Johns County has a good school *system* (demographics), but the schools aren't different than in the demographically similar parts of Duval or Clay Counties. And most of the best individual schools in the metro area, for those who put stock in school rankings and whatnot, are in Duval. In fact, most are in or near the urban core.

Most of us here would probably agree that these things should be about choice. The disagreement here seems to be whether this expressway will improve one or more of those choices. Clearly there's debate about that. I don't really see this as a burbs-vs-core issue.

Unfortunatly, not all middle, upper middle, and upper class families can live in San Marco. 

Why have so many Jacksonville families moved to SJC?

[thelakelander]

^No one is really moving to West Augustine. So, SJC isn't really different than other bedroom communities with no significant sized urban core area. Basically, cheaper housing and more new development, along with good schools in the specific area of SJC they are relocating too. Basically, the same reason people are moving to the Southside, North Jax, Argyle and Clay County. These areas also happen to be we're we've subsidized our transportation network the most over the last two decades.

[tufsu1]

Northern St. Johns County has great schools....IF you want your kids to grow up in a relatively homogeneous society.

I had that lifetsyle growing up in the wealthy suburbs of Maryland...and while I was far from sheltered, college life in Philadelphia was culture shock.

[Tacachale]

Finally.  Another voice who gets it.  It's about choices.  There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core.  Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better.  I want my yard, my space, my silence.  I want low crime in communities with other families.  I can't find that in the Urban Core, and good luck trying to convince me and others like me that its any different.

It may not convince you and others like you, but I've got virtually every one of those things in San Marco, which is in the urban core. I have a yard, space, A-rated schools, and there are plenty families. As far as crime we've had a lot fewer issues than when we lived in Ponte Vedra. It's not particularly silent though, so there's that.

St. Johns County has a good school *system* (demographics), but the schools aren't different than in the demographically similar parts of Duval or Clay Counties. And most of the best individual schools in the metro area, for those who put stock in school rankings and whatnot, are in Duval. In fact, most are in or near the urban core.

Most of us here would probably agree that these things should be about choice. The disagreement here seems to be whether this expressway will improve one or more of those choices. Clearly there's debate about that. I don't really see this as a burbs-vs-core issue.

Unfortunatly, not all middle, upper middle, and upper class families can live in San Marco. 

Why have so many Jacksonville families moved to SJC?

You said those things can't be found in the urban core, my point is, they can. Other neighborhoods have most of them, besides the public schools, but then, the private and magnet options are better in Duval than they are in St. Johns.

(Northern) St. Johns County has plenty of attractions, and has developed a good brand. It does have a good school system. But as Ennis said, one big draw is the availability of new, reasonably priced homes. That wouldn't be possible if the governments didn't do things like build billion-dollar expressways opening up greenfield development.

It really should be about choice. Ideally there should be great suburbs for those that want them, and a thriving urban core for folks that want that. But the investment isn't on par. Right now we're building a $2 billion expressway in the suburbs, while chunks of the urban core are falling into the river and we have to fight tooth and nail for simple bike-ped improvements.

[jcjohnpaint]

^I 100% agree.  When my wife and I were looking for a house, one of the big benefits of living in the suburbs was the size of the house for the money (eventually family etc).  We ended up moving to R/A- and in no way regret it, but it was more out of ethics than anything.  It is obvious, especially after moving into town that there does not seem to be anyone (as for a politician) on your side.  The power and money is finding its way further and further away from DT.  The scary thing is that most of our peer cities have reversed this trend 10 years ago and have reaped great rewards. 

[brucef58]

One point being overlooked is that (counting two way traffic) over 20 million vehicles cross the Georgia/Florida line each year.  Much of that traffic is coming/going to points south of Jacksonville and therefore the outer beltway will be for the benefit of traffic going to Miami, Orlando and Tampa as well as local traffic.  It should be with this in mind that the FDOT approaches the Federal DOT and requests interstate designation for this highway.

With a major objective of the road to route visitors to Florida from Yulee to near St. Augustine and relieve traffic on I-95 as well as decrease the impact of out of state tourists on truck traffic utilizing JAXPORT it is only fair that the Federal Government designate the outer beltway as an Interstate perhaps I-895 or I-710 and pay for 75% of the project.  In addition there will be interstate traffic created as more manufacturing and distribution facilities move to Cecil Commerce Center (CCC) on the Westside next to the outer beltway.

On the question of using tolls to pay for the road, is this really a fair method?  The outer beltway not only benefits the traffic that uses it; it benefits the driver that goes from Orange Park to JAXPORT on I-295 or from Mandarin to UPS on Commonwealth by having less out-of state traffic volume.  The same goes for I-95 from JIA to Downtown or commuters taking Blanding from Middleburg to Downtown not having to compete with people going to CCC. 

There are thousands of people who receive an indirect benefit from the outer beltway without driving on it and yet will not pay a dime toward it.  We need to demand the 75% coverage of cost from Washington and pay for the state and local 25% using gas taxes.  Toll roads and express lanes are currently less than 1% of the centerline miles in our state and yet contribute 17% of the FDOT budget.  This is not fair to those who use them and is letting the rest of us freeload on the toll road users for the transportation benefits that we receive.  A gas tax or even better a weight/mile fee would let all of use fairly pay for our road use.

[thelakelander]

One point being overlooked is that (counting two way traffic) over 20 million vehicles cross the Georgia/Florida line each year.  Much of that traffic is coming/going to points south of Jacksonville and therefore the outer beltway will be for the benefit of traffic going to Miami, Orlando and Tampa as well as local traffic.  It should be with this in mind that the FDOT approaches the Federal DOT and requests interstate designation for this highway.

With a major objective of the road to route visitors to Florida from Yulee to near St. Augustine and relieve traffic on I-95 as well as decrease the impact of out of state tourists on truck traffic utilizing JAXPORT it is only fair that the Federal Government designate the outer beltway as an Interstate perhaps I-895 or I-710 and pay for 75% of the project.

I definitely don't see that happening.... The feds aren't going to pay for 75% of the FCE. If they have that type of cash to spend in the region, we have a ton of existing facilities and bridges (that people do use), that need to be addressed. Also, tourist won't be using the FCE anymore than they use the Polk Parkway or 429 along the I-4 corridor. It takes one so far out of the way, they'd be better off staying on the existing interstates. If traffic gets too bad (we're a long way off from real congestion issues), the express lanes FDOT is building, will be available for use.

[Edward]

Well, I am glad to see that my first post on MJ created such a great conversation. As I said early on, the project has always been controversial. Apparently that hasn't changed. Thank you all for participating in the conversation.

I live in Clay County and travel to DT Jax regularly, and it is always via SR-23 (when I leave from home in Middleburg). I can be in DT Jax from Middleburg in about 30-40 minutes – the same amount of time it takes to get to I-295 at Blanding. No brainer for me.

Though I may prefer that trip to always be free, I'm smart enough to know it has to be paid for somehow. Like it or not, toll roads are at least a part of the future of funding new road construction. "We" don't like taxes, and politicians generally take the path of least resistance. Just like more people are part of our future, so are more roads, and the associated costs.

There were many excellent points made above, but one I will comment on is the idea that the road doesn't pay for itself. What road does? After it pays for itself through creation of additional taxes generated because the road is even there at all (sales, ad valorem, etc.), is the road then a profit center? I'm glad we have professionals in the thread who can maybe answer that question. I can't for sure.

Time to go enjoy the Clay lifestyle and take my grandson fishing. Thankfully I get to drive on a nice paved road and don't have to hook up a horse-and-buggy and hit the trail. And then in a couple of weeks we will hop on SR-23 and enjoy the wonderful and fantastic One Spark in DT Jax. #ilovejax.

[thelakelander]

There were many excellent points made above, but one I will comment on is the idea that the road doesn't pay for itself. What road does? After it pays for itself through creation of additional taxes generated because the road is even there at all (sales, ad valorem, etc.), is the road then a profit center? I'm glad we have professionals in the thread who can maybe answer that question. I can't for sure.

I believe much of our infrastructure investment to encourage growth in specific locations (which is what the FCE is) should at least cover its cost and turn a profit indirectly. This includes some of the the revenue sources you mentioned. Unfortunately, it's highly doubtful that the FCE (assuming completely built) will do just that. To truly get those $2 billion in direct costs back (and I haven't even mentioned the billions in O&M and other supportive investments that will be needed in the future), that area will need to densify to a level not allowed in Clay or SJC.....which is why I consider it a dog.

[southsider1015]

There were many excellent points made above, but one I will comment on is the idea that the road doesn't pay for itself. What road does? After it pays for itself through creation of additional taxes generated because the road is even there at all (sales, ad valorem, etc.), is the road then a profit center? I'm glad we have professionals in the thread who can maybe answer that question. I can't for sure.

I believe much of our infrastructure investment to encourage growth in specific locations (which is what the FCE is) should at least cover its cost and turn a profit indirectly. This includes some of the the revenue sources you mentioned. Unfortunately, it's highly doubtful that the FCE (assuming completely built) will do just that. To truly get those $2 billion in direct costs back (and I haven't even mentioned the billions in O&M and other supportive investments that will be needed in the future), that area will need to densify to a level not allowed in Clay or SJC.....which is why I consider it a dog.

Time for SJC and Clay County to update their growth management policies and land development code, right?  So, let's say that, in order to prevent the sprawl that this corridor could cause, that SJC and CC had specific PUD codes to help control/guide the development along the corridor.  Would that help gain your support?

Also, lake, as you know, FCX will be built in specific segments, and not all at once, for financial reasons.  4 lanes (2 lanes, 2 directions) will be built first.  No guarantees that 6-lane or 8-lane sections will ever be built.  So throwing the $2 billion number around is just hypothetical, and, without a doubt, the maximum investment possible.