Downtown Jax falls further behind

[simms3]

A convention center in Downtown is laughable as downtown currently stands. There are two hotels there for Gods sake. Besides attend the convention what else is there to do downtown? Not a damn thing. If all the projects on the table now were finished then you could start to consider it. Until then, don't hold your breath.

So the city should wait until it has a few more full-service hotels downtown? What will spur that development? FL Country Superfest, Welcome to Rockville, FL-GA game, Gator Bowl, proposed USS Adams maritime museum? Don't get me wrong, these are all great, but they will never make downtown Jax a destination.

^Good point. None of those things are going to "make" downtown a "destination". Most major cities have comparable events, museums, and more. A new convention center won't either. But none of these things should be expected too.

I'm not as down on a new convention center as many.  If it were between the scoreboards and convention center (funding wise, it was), I'd go convention center because of the indirect livability options and economic opportunities it facilitates with the Jacksonville Terminal, Northbank Riverfront, Hyatt, Jax Landing, Courthouse Annex, and East Bay Street bars/restaurants, etc. The correct placement of clustering complementing uses, within a compact pedestrian setting is the key to downtown vibrancy. Moving the convention center to the courthouse site, enhancing the viability of the Hyatt, the Elbow, Landing, etc. advances the concept of the "three C's".

So, I think this is one of those issues where we have to balance expense/size verses goals for making the expense.  If the goal is to be a top convention destination in the US and for the center to be an immediate direct money maker, then that's a losing battle. Same goes for public investments on transit, in libraries, parks, cycle tracks, streetscapes, schools, etc.  If the goal is to create a downtown environment that includes correct and coordinated placement of uses and investments that actually works and helps stimulate additional economic opportunity and traffic flow, then that's another discussion altogether.

That's incredible.  The city deserves to be ripped apart and made fun of endlessly for that, and even on this very forum there are people who get all defensive about the scoreboards and start personal attacks on those who don't share the same sentiments.

With decisions like that being made, it's almost pointless to read the headlines on this forum on a daily basis, or comment ("but you don't live here, what do you care?...those videotrons are for the people of Jacksonville").  omg so dumb.

[thelakelander]

You guys do know that most cities of decent size have a convention center or some place where their businesses/industry can have trade shows, conferences, exhibitions, etc.? For every San Diego, Philadelphia, Boston that Jax isn't and shouldn't attempt to compete with, there's a Birmingham, Grand Rapids, Louisville, Milwaukee out there that it could....and probably already does on some level today. Then there's a level of events that are held in places with smaller centers like Erie, PA and Lakeland, FL. This is an honest question for everyone. Are there any real business centers out there with no convention facilities at all? 

[thelakelander]

I'm not as down on a new convention center as many.  If it were between the scoreboards and convention center (funding wise, it was), I'd go convention center because of the indirect livability options and economic opportunities it facilitates...

That's incredible.  The city deserves to be ripped apart and made fun of endlessly for that, and even on this very forum there are people who get all defensive about the scoreboards and start personal attacks on those who don't share the same sentiments.

With decisions like that being made, it's almost pointless to read the headlines on this forum on a daily basis, or comment ("but you don't live here, what do you care?...those videotrons are for the people of Jacksonville").  omg so dumb.

Unfortunately, that is true. The scoreboards were funded with the bed tax.  The exact same tax that was considered by the Peyton administration to help fund a new convention center in the mid-2000s.  If Jax decides it would like to invest in a new center at some point in the future, the bed tax is not a realistic funding mechanism anymore.

[BD51]

You guys do know that most cities of decent size have a convention center or some place where their businesses/industry can have trade shows, conferences, exhibitions, etc.? For every San Diego, Philadelphia, Boston that Jax isn't and shouldn't attempt to compete with, there's a Birmingham, Grand Rapids, Louisville, Milwaukee out there that it could....and probably already does on some level today. Then there's a level of events that are held in places with smaller centers like Erie, PA and Lakeland, FL. This is an honest question for everyone. Are there any real business centers out there with no convention facilities at all?

Sadly, Jax cannot currently compete with Birmingham, Louisville, Milwaukee or even Grand Rapids. And we already know the city has lost conventions to Daytona. By the way, does anyone else think that downtown Birmingham would have a new Westin hotel without a decent convention center?

[JFman00]

I don't understand the drive to compete in a shrinking market given increased competition at every level, the city's budget, and the opportunity cost of using tax dollars for a CC vs other improvements. Yes, there are convention centers *everywhere* but Seattle seems to be doing just fine with one not much bigger than ours. Should we plan for an improvement on/relocation of the Prime Osborne? Absolutely. Are there several pages of more important and less costly items to address concerning Downtown? Without a doubt.

[thelakelander]

Seattle's convention center is more than twice the size of Jax's and was last expanded in 2001.  A $766 million plan to expand it again was temporarily put on ice in 2009. Here's an article about the debate of whether expansion is worth the costs or not:

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2008590328_conventioncenter05m.html

Should we plan for an improvement on/relocation of the Prime Osborne? Absolutely.

This was my basic point.

Are there several pages of more important and less costly items to address concerning Downtown? Without a doubt.

Without a doubt. My hope is that we'll find a way to accomplish several things simultaneously.

[Sunbeam]

Lets begin by saying SMG does little good in promoting and marketing the city venues. Especially since they must get permission from the jaguars to do most anything.

Then lets add to it that after improvements to the current convention center were done being paid for the city in its infinite stupidity decided to give the revenue to the Jaguars instead of keeping the 2% for a future new convention center or maintenance/improvement of the current center.

Had the city NOT given the to selfish selfserving jaguars the convention centers share of 2% revenue a new convention center could have been practically bought and paid for by today.

And now city leadership doesnt want piss off jaguars ("oh no, where would we be if the jaguars werent here", is a constant threat by city leadership AND the jaguars) therefore wont ask for that 2% back to improve the chances of having revenue to pay for a new convention center.

During the last council meeting Gulliford who wants to ask voters for a "new" sales tax stated "we" must find a new source of revenue for pension debt and capital improvements but folks get real! THERE IS ONLY ONE SOURCE OF REVENUE AND THAT IS THE TAX PAYER!

Folks WE already paid for every pension in this city unfortunately city leadership chose to spend the revenue some where else. WE are in major debt for capital improvements (over 1/2 Billion) that has done little to nothing to fulfill the needs of the city but pet projects sure have been built.

Lets bring up the fact the Capital Improvement Plan (CIP) that we should be able to look at and know what to expect and what has to be paid for CONTINUES to change and be amended so we NEVER know what is going on and who ever is in charge from year to year KEEPS changing the priorities so we can never get ahead of plas for convention centers, skyways, etc., hell we cant even pay for road resurfacing and infrastructure improvements because of mismanagement of money.

History teaches this community that city leadership cannot be trusted with their word and certainly not our money, and way too many citizens are cowards to speak up at council meetings therefore city leadership routinely runs amok!

If this city wants a new convention center the first place to go IS the Jaguars to get that 2% revenue back! AND the Jaguars NEED to STOP threatening this community and city leadership that if we dont give in to their whim they will pack up and leave because THAT is way past old!!!

[marty904]

I echo the other comments in here regarding the other elements to pursuing convention business.  It goes way beyond and is most times less about the convention center itself and more so about the area/amenities/entertainment available outside the convention facilities/activities.

Do you think Vegas is the convention capital of the country because its convention center is so amazing? Not even a little bit... it's because of everything ELSE that Vegas is/has.  We can't compete in the convention market because we simply don't have enough of the other supporting elements to draw it in. Daytona Beach, in all its "fame" of once being the spring break capital and having all the biker events and NASCAR... even they are struggling to bring business to their Ocean Center because all the entertainment venues and the beachside area has lost its "luster" from the 80's/90's and the city is not doing much to get that "amazing beach town" reputation back.

Bottom line is that there is little to do downtown and therefore to spend millions on a new convention center, on precious river front real estate, is not a smart move prior to elevating the downtown attractions.

[BD51]

I echo the other comments in here regarding the other elements to pursuing convention business.  It goes way beyond and is most times less about the convention center itself and more so about the area/amenities/entertainment available outside the convention facilities/activities.

Bottom line is that there is little to do downtown and therefore to spend millions on a new convention center, on precious river front real estate, is not a smart move prior to elevating the downtown attractions.

I agree that it goes beyond the convention center itself and the amenities/entertainment surrounding the facility is just as important, if not more so. But how is Jax going to elevate its downtown attractions without a more steady flow of out of town/state visitors? Currently, downtown is basically a meeting place for sporting events, concerts, Monster trucks and the Fair for the locals. Do you really think that private development wouldn't coincide with and follow a new convention center on the St Johns River? Do you think Mr. Vinik, owner of the TB Lightning, would be investing his money in downtown Tampa without their existing convention center? Since Tampa is now beginning to focus on the 10,000+ convention market, Jax should be stepping up to the plate.

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2014/10/02/why-jeff-vinik-paid-150-million-for-tampa-marriott.html

[Ocklawaha]

As companies and associations slowly raise budgets for meetings and conventions, they're giving greater consideration to smaller and less-expensive cities that they once might have bypassed for more glamorous locales.
"A lot of second-tier cities have been very aggressive in site-inspection (trips), promotions and financial offerings," says Kevin Iwamoto of StarCite, which connects meeting planners and sellers.
Incentive meetings are also making a comeback, often away from Las Vegas, Chicago or Orlando. Nearly a quarter of meeting planners in a recent survey by Corporate Meetings & Incentives, a trade publication, say they expect their incentive budgets to be higher this year but will use second-tier cities, says Barbara Scofidio, the publication's editor.
Shifting meetings to less-expensive destinations is not a new strategy, as planners have sought to squeeze more from their shrinking budgets in the last two years. But belt-tightening ways and the appeal of smaller markets linger even as the economy improves.
New convention space and hotels help. Many small to midsize cities built new hotels before and during the recession, and are aggressively marketing them.
In January, Indianapolis completed its $278 million expansion of its downtown convention center. Omaha and nearby suburbs have seen a 25% increase in hotel rooms in the last three years.
Rapidly rising hotel rates in the top markets also make smaller cities appear more attractive, says Dale Lockett, CEO of Albuquerque Convention and Visitors Bureau.
After falling 24% in 2010, bookings in Memphis are 12% higher this year vs. the same period a year ago, says John Oros of Memphis Convention and Visitors Bureau.
Meeting planners are still shy about appearing in "high-profile destinations," says Joe Marinelli, president of Visit Savannah in Georgia. Such concerns are easing. But the policies enacted during the recession — avoiding beachfront properties, staying closer to home — remain considerations for many companies.
Savannah has become a beneficiary of meeting planners' modest approach, Marinelli says. Savannah had its best tourism year ever in 2010, with the city's hotel tax collection rising 14% despite room rates falling slightly. "It's warm. It's a place people want to go to," Marinelli says. "It has spa and golf, but not perceived as an over-the-top destination."
SOURCE - USA TODAY - http://travel.usatoday.com/news/story/2011/02/Conventions-go-to-Memphis-Savannah-other-smaller-cities/43425600/1

Small city convention centers are alive and well but they all have elements of success that we just keep ignoring. Connectivity, scale, location, hotels, and featuring the many offerings to be found in Jacksonville which are apparently quite easy to spot from the Met-Life blimp, but invisible to locals.


ENID OK


Grand Rapids MI


Sioux Falls SD


Riverside CA


Las Cruces NM

[JFman00]

The same way private development sprung up around the Prime Osborne? Or how bustling it is around the stadium when there's not a game going on? What brings people to downtowns is having vibrant, active, occupied downtowns. The city, hopefully, isn't trying (anymore) to build a mall or amusement park with some gimmicky "big draw" surrounded by places for people to spend money. Instead it needs to focus on making downtown a place people want to live, work, shop and maybe have some fun.

The interventions necessary for this have been known for some time:

• Making streets friendly for pedestrians
• Aiding and encouraging small businesses to start up or expand
• Incentivizing developers to build and residents to move in
• Discouraging property owners from undesireable uses of land (parking lots)
• Preserving and re-using unique, historical structures
• Allowing and encouraging private businesses the use of outdoor space
• Active and accessible waterfront and public areas

One of the first posts I referenced talked about stadiums and sports teams being the consequence of a city's success, not the cause. I think the same goes for convention centers. Other urbanists agree

[thelakelander]

Our problem is we have an obsolete convention center in our future intermodal center. We also have a struggling heavily subsidized convention center hotel and retail center one mile east of what should be next door. Doing nothing means we're screwing the pooch with several other things that need to be properly addressed in the downtown core.

[BD51]

Our problem is we have an obsolete convention center in our future intermodal center. We also have a struggling heavily subsidized convention center hotel and retail center one mile east of what should be next door. Doing nothing means we're screwing the pooch with several other things that need to be properly addressed in the downtown core.

Agreed. There are many things that need to be done. It's more than a convention center, it's about sparking development and getting people to occupy the urban core, preferably both visitors and permanent residents.

[thelakelander]

Unfortunately, we haven't spent 40 years doing either.  If I'm correct, it was either building the Adams Mark or Clarkson's Marriott next door to the Prime Osborn. How, did we end up selecting the Adams Mark?  Was it based on enhancing the Prime Osborn's ability to draw business? Also, didn't Delaney consider giving $50 million in the BJP to improve the Prime Osborn?  Why was that turned down?

[BD51]

Unfortunately, we haven't spent 40 years doing either.  If I'm correct, it was either building the Adams Mark or Clarkson's Marriott next door to the Prime Osborn. How, did we end up selecting the Adams Mark?  Was it based on enhancing the Prime Osborn's ability to draw business? Also, didn't Delaney consider giving $50 million in the BJP to improve the Prime Osborn?  Why was that turned down?

16 years and neither location draws any significant convention business:

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042498/opl_frioppag.html