Tocknell Open House for 5-Points Traffic Study

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Seems that there's going to be an "open to the public" type meeting at Sun Ray on Tuesday the 17th to discuss the study being done in and around the 5-Points area.  There's another thread on this topic, that I'll find and attach shortly, but for now....

http://residentnews.net/2013/09/04/public-forum-offers-chance-input-traffic-flow-pedestrian-safety/

Public forum offers chance for input on traffic flow, pedestrian safety
Added by Editor on September 4, 2013.
Saved under Neighborhood News for Riverside, Avondale, Ortega and Murray Hill
Any and all comments requested by consultant

By Stephen Kindland
Resident Community News

Residents in Riverside, Avondale and surrounding neighborhoods have a chance to provide input on traffic flow and parking space in the Five Points business district when a public forum is held later this month.

Stephen Tocknell of Tocknell Planning Services and members of the 5 Points Merchants Association say they welcome "any and all comments" concerning traffic flow, on-street parking and safe travel for pedestrians and bicyclists in the bustling commercial area.

"No one has any preconceived notions," Tocknell said of the forum, scheduled for 6 p.m. on Tuesday, Sept. 17 at Sun-Ray Cinema, 1028 Park St. "The whole point is to address ideas that people have."

The merchants association has joined Riverside Avondale Preservation in hiring Tocknell to conduct a "concept study" that will serve as a blueprint for creating a safer environment for pedestrians and bicyclists while minimizing the affect the changes will have on motorists traveling through the commercial area.
The plan also can be used to bolster the chances of the city spending as much as $750,000 to follow through on whatever plans result from the study. City Councilman Jim Love is seeking that amount after being approached by members of the two groups.

Love, whose District 14 includes Five Points, remains in support of the redesign, which likely will include changes to the historic, five-way intersection from which the district gets its name. He said that improvements are becoming more urgent, given the opening next year of nearby residential complexes, including 220 Riverside, a 294-unit project in nearby Brooklyn.
"I certainly applaud their efforts," Love said of Riverside Avondale Preservation and the merchants association. "I will do my best to figure out how to get some money. It's needed; they're thriving over there."

RAP – a not-for-profit group established in the mid-1970s to protect the area's historic integrity – is using $36,000 left over from previous fundraisers to pay for the study, and has joined the 5 Points Merchants Association in raising money to demonstrate to the city that they are willing to come up with an estimated 10 percent of the cost to complete the projects outlined in the concept study.

Tocknell said he and others involved in the study have been working with city planners, engineers and other officials, and that he remains impressed with the resolve of RAP and the merchants association.

"This plan isn't going to be put on a shelf," he said. "It's a plan that's connected to an engineering plan that is connected to construction. That makes the whole thing a lot more worthwhile."

Several ideas for improvements have emerged since mid-July, when Tocknell led Love and two dozen other people on a tour of the commercial area. The tour included a close look at the quasi-roundabout at the five-way intersection where Oak, Margaret, Lomax and Park streets meet.

The intersection has long been a source of confusion for pedestrians and drivers – especially motorists unfamiliar with the area. Proposed changes to increase safety while keeping the historic value of the lighthouse-looking post that flashes red and yellow lights – likely will be addressed at the forum, according to Allan DeVault, a managing partner of the Black Sheep restaurant on Oak Street.

He said other topics of equal importance will be covered, including the restructuring of the intersections at Post and Margaret streets and Post and Park streets.
"Community input is really the main goal of the forum," DeVault said.

Tocknell says he hopes the forum will be well attended.
"I'm very pleased with how all the pieces are coming together," he said. "Everyone likes the approach we are taking."

[Dog Walker]

Doug Skiles, who frequently writes on this forum, is also one of the consultants working on this project.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Doug Skiles, who frequently writes on this forum, is also one of the consultants working on this project.

Good. 

With the progress that he and others have helped begin in San Marco, I'm guessing it might be helping to light a fire under the collective asses of the Riverside community. 

Nothing like a "friendly" game of keeping up with the Jones' when it benefits everyone, right?

[dougskiles]

Doug Skiles, who frequently writes on this forum, is also one of the consultants working on this project.

Good. 

With the progress that he and others have helped begin in San Marco, I'm guessing it might be helping to light a fire under the collective asses of the Riverside community. 

Nothing like a "friendly" game of keeping up with the Jones' when it benefits everyone, right?

It's funny that you say that.  In my early meetings with merchants in San Marco Square I showed them pictures of how great the new streetscapes at the Shoppes of Avondale and Stockton Street looked.  It was obvious that we better do something now or forever be left behind.

I am looking forward to Tuesday night and hope to see many of you there.

[Dog Walker]

The 5 Points Community is not trying to change the appearance of the area.  It looks just fine as it is, thank you.

What we are trying to do is make the area better for pedestrians and cyclists.  Because of the fantastic restaurants and night spots that have opened around here, pedestrian and bicycle traffic has really increased many fold and there have been too many incidents and near-misses at all of the intersections.

[dougskiles]

^We will be looking at how to improve the streetscape on Lomax, in addition to what you described.

[urbaknight]

Study study study, everything that's done doesn't have to involve an expensive study! Why not just hire me to make these decisions, I'm from the Northeast, which automatically makes me a more qualified city planner than anyone one from here. Here's my solution for the 5 points intersection; Take out the yellow blinking lights and replace them with red ones. Put a stop sign at all of the streets and make it a 5 way stop. Problem solved! And I didn't even have to conduct a study to figure that out!

[urbaknight]

You know what? now that I think about it, I'm going to the DIA office and ask for a job!

[CityLife]

Study study study, everything that's done doesn't have to involve an expensive study! Why not just hire me to make these decisions, I'm from the Northeast, which automatically makes me a more qualified city planner than anyone one from here. Here's my solution for the 5 points intersection; Take out the yellow blinking lights and replace them with red ones. Put a stop sign at all of the streets and make it a 5 way stop. Problem solved! And I didn't even have to conduct a study to figure that out!

I realize you're trolling...or at least hope you are...but 5 way stops are terrible. Go check out the 5 way stop in Atlantic Beach. The residents love it so much, that they go out of their way to avoid it.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I realize you're trolling...or at least hope you are...but 5 way stops are terrible. Go check out the 5 way stop in Atlantic Beach. The residents love it so much, that they go out of their way to avoid it.

Which should be the case here as well, IMO.  The problem with ours is that it's a direct thoroughfare for morning and evening commutes...  What worries me about the 'study' is that I'm afraid more people are going to speaking up regarding a way to make it easier to drive through with, again, peds and bikes pushed to the afterthought of the conversation. 

Drinking game for Tuesday, take a sip everytime someone says in context:

1.)  Of course we want to make it safer for pedestrians, but I don't want to have to slow down when I drive through.

2.)  Pedestrians.  They should wait for the cars to pass before crossing.

3.)  Those hipster kids need to get off their butts and get real jobs and real transportation.

4.)  I'm for whatever changes you guys want to make as long as it doesn't affect my drive to or from work.


IMO, it would be a much more friendly 'destination' if cars were completely excluded and the little area be turned into an open air market-type-area.

[CityLife]

I realize you're trolling...or at least hope you are...but 5 way stops are terrible. Go check out the 5 way stop in Atlantic Beach. The residents love it so much, that they go out of their way to avoid it.

Which should be the case here as well, IMO.  The problem with ours is that it's a direct thoroughfare for morning and evening commutes...  What worries me about the 'study' is that I'm afraid more people are going to speaking up regarding a way to make it easier to drive through with, again, peds and bikes pushed to the afterthought of the conversation. 

IMO, it would be a much more friendly 'destination' if cars were completely excluded and the little area be turned into an open air market-type-area.

That's one of the big issues though. You can't just hope to push all the cars elsewhere without impacting the whole grid network. If you intentionally divert cars from 5 Points what effect will that have on Riverside Ave and Post St? Will that make bikes and pedestrians less safe on those streets? I'm sure there are reasonable solutions to accomodate both cars and bike/peds, but a 5 way stop is not the solution imo. Five way stops lead to a lot of confusion about who stays and who goes and aren't safe for bike/peds because they have no clue who is driving where.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

The concept that I've been toying with is to make it a 4 way intersection w/ right turns only. 

Turn Margaret St. from Forbes on into a dedicated parking lot with a cul-de-sac at the end using available space from the offroad parking areas.

The remainder of the traffic has to make right hand turns at their intersection:  Park to Margaret, Margaret to Lomax, Lomax to Park and finally Park to Park.  All yields, but not direct access through - similar to a round-a-bout, but their are not options.

Now, where would all the through traffic go?  I don't know.  Unfortunately, Post is a highly commuted road, but it's also practically 100% residential from King to Margaret with the exception being Stockton.  Same with College.

There's Riverside, but a large increase in traffic there would seriously affect Margaret and Riverside, but with Margaret no longer being a cut-through, it may actually help by funneling more cars continuously down Riverside. 

Every potential solution seems open up 3-4 more questions.  And that's why I'm not optimistic about this study - Path of Least Resistance.

[dougskiles]

The 5-points intersection is just a part of this study.  We are also looking at how to improve the pedestrian/bike experience at Post & Park, Post & Margaret, Oak & Margaret and streetscape on Lomax and Margaret.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

The 5-points intersection is just a part of this study.  We are also looking at how to improve the pedestrian/bike experience at Post & Park, Post & Margaret, Oak & Margaret and streetscape on Lomax and Margaret.

Then there's that...

You have limited foot traffic at Post/Margaret because there's nothing north of what will be the 7-11, for the time being. 

The foot traffic at Post/Park is again somewhat limited due to the majority of activity happening to the south of Post.  There is noticeably more at that intersection, though, due to the proximity of the church and for Riverside park access - again, for the time being.  This may ramp up as more is developed, walkably, to the north.  Dog park, cough, cough, dog park....

Streetscape on Lomax would be nice.  I would imagine a sidewalk widening, repaving - adding some greenscape and dressing it up in general.  At least you already have a focus piece.

Oak/Margaret is quite the CF, as is Margaret/Riverside.  Try making a left onto Margaret at 5:30.... 

But those are the easy ones, IMO.  The biggie is 5Points, and any solution you find for the others will be directly affected by whatever happens at the main intersection.  That's why I seem focused only on one issue, because if you solve all of the others first, then make a change at 5P, then your original solutions may be rendered invalid.

Edit:

I'll be at the meeting Tuesday, though I doubt that I'll do much inputting while I'm there.  Before formally throwing my $.02 in, I'd at least wait for you and professionals to make your presentation and then pick it apart from there.    If I have any ideas that are actually useful, I'll forward them along then.

[Dog Walker]

One of the reasons that RAP and the 5 Points Merchants Assn. is having to pay for the planning is the Public Works people told them directly that Public Works could not do the planning, (budget & people) but could implement a plan given to them by others.

This is NOT a study.  It is the development of a PLAN that can be put into place and acted on.

Come on Tuesday night.  Your $.02 worth is more valuable than the opinion of someone who doesn't know the area.

Quote from Doug Skiles:  "There is not a textbook solution for a five way, urban intersection."