Nathan Beford Forrest High: Time For a Name Change

[Cheshire Cat]

Don't forget that the school is predominately occupied by black children -- what the hell?

Heritage is fine.  Cruelty is not. 

There is some sort of strange poetic justice in the reality that the school is mostly attended by Black children. IMO 

To the issue of the name, it seems the discussion of name changes when it comes to schools always seems to revolve around the Nathan Bedford institution.  In this particular case I do think the name should be changed.  It has been a thorn in the side of racial balance for years and really represents the ugly notion of lashing out at desegregation years ago.  Of course we cannot change history but we can choose what we honor in our own.  Celebrating a KKK leader, in spite of his eventual remorse is just "ugly" and "ignorant" in my view.   Perhaps just change the name to "Forrest" as others have suggested and remove the Nathan part altogether.  Considering that there is a lumber history in the area and as a result many Pine forests in Jacksonville, why not consider "Pine Forest" for the name? 

As far as equating the value of a name change to "dollars and cents", there are times when the dollar amount should not be the first consideration to change.  I believe this is one of those cases.

[Ocklawaha]

What a shame that people can't get over our own history and use that as an excuse to 'feel oppressed.' BULL SHIT! Perhaps we would also need to change the name of Kingsley Plantation to something more acceptable like 'Funky old white house on the salt marsh?' Switzerland needs to become 'Bend in the River' and Beluthahatchee Park perhaps 'Shad trees with Lake.' We can rename the Naval Air Station, 'Military post focused on water' (after all the military didn't accept equal roles for Blacks and minorities until post WWII). Then there is Francis Levett, Sr.'s Julianton Plantation, with dwelling house and gardens modeled after English country manors. Located at Mandarin Point, Levett's dwelling and garden looked on the St. Johns River and Julington Creek. Chuck that name: 'Julington Creek Plantation is gone, we need something more generic for that too. Plantation florida could be renamed 'Dream' or some other meaningless name such as 'Deer Chase' or 'Quail Hollow.' Edward White needs to be flushed, 'it hurts my feelings too.' You see I'm a direct decedent of both Wallace and Robert Bruce of Scotland, and we all know what Edward the I did to Wallace. Keiser University in Florida has to lose it's name too because we fought a war against 'The Keiser' and his boys used poison gas (far worse then anything Forest could have thought up). Oh no! There seems to be a connection with the name Dupont too. Apparently these slave trading nasties were related to Alfred, meaning of course all reference to 'Dupont' in Florida must be erased. Funny that the German's who by now are far more liberal and politically correct then Jacksonville, hasn't seen fit to change the name of Buchenwald Village. Buchenwald in the Buchenwald forest, near Weimar. It was the site of a large concentration camp established by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in 1937. It held approximately 20,000 prisoners during World War II. Belsen is a village within the German borough of Bergen, another name someone forgot to change.

To 'get over it' you'd have to come to a realization that injustice and forgiveness have been around since time began. Slavery was never about 'hate, racism or even oppression,' since long before the Roman Empire slaves of every shade were bought and sold for economic reasons. Was my family ever anyones slave? Probably. Was yours? Likely.

Then there is the whole Christians to the lions thing. Shall I campaign to rid our world of every Italian word? Matter of fact I like Pizza too much.

In this process of tolerance we have become less tolerant, in this age of openness we've become closed, in this age of advanced historical and archeological study - we just don't want to hear it. It bruises our ears... labeled cruel... mean spirited and it's all about surrender of our multi-racial culture to appease the protestors de jour.

[Cheshire Cat]

What a shame that people can't get over our own history and use that as an excuse to 'feel oppressed.' BULL SHIT! Perhaps we would also need to change the name of Kingsley Plantation to something more acceptable like 'Funky old white house on the salt marsh?' Switzerland needs to become 'Bend in the River' and Beluthahatchee Park perhaps 'Shad trees with Lake.' We can rename the Naval Air Station, 'Military post focused on water' (after all the military didn't accept equal roles for Blacks and minorities until post WWII). Then there is Francis Levett, Sr.'s Julianton Plantation, with dwelling house and gardens modeled after English country manors. Located at Mandarin Point, Levett's dwelling and garden looked on the St. Johns River and Julington Creek. Chuck that name: 'Julington Creek Plantation is gone, we need something more generic for that too. Plantation florida could be renamed 'Dream' or some other meaningless name such as 'Deer Chase' or 'Quail Hollow.' Edward White needs to be flushed, 'it hurts my feelings too.' You see I'm a direct decedent of both Wallace and Robert Bruce of Scotland, and we all know what Edward the I did to Wallace. Keiser University in Florida has to lose it's name too because we fought a war against 'The Keiser' and his boys used poison gas (far worse then anything Forest could have thought up). Oh no! There seems to be a connection with the name Dupont too. Apparently these slave trading nasties were related to Alfred, meaning of course all reference to 'Dupont' in Florida must be erased. Funny that the German's who by now are far more liberal and politically correct then Jacksonville, hasn't seen fit to change the name of Buchenwald Village. Buchenwald in the Buchenwald forest, near Weimar. It was the site of a large concentration camp established by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in 1937. It held approximately 20,000 prisoners during World War II. Belsen is a village within the German borough of Bergen, another name someone forgot to change.

To 'get over it' you'd have to come to a realization that injustice and forgiveness have been around since time began. Slavery was never about 'hate, racism or even oppression,' since long before the Roman Empire slaves of every shade were bought and sold for economic reasons. Was my family ever anyones slave? Probably. Was yours? Likely.

Then there is the whole Christians to the lions thing. Shall I campaign to rid our world of every Italian word? Matter of fact I like Pizza too much.

In this process of tolerance we have become less tolerant, in this age of openness we've become closed, in this age of advanced historical and archeological study - we just don't want to hear it. It bruises our ears... labeled cruel... mean spirited and it's all about surrender of our multi-racial culture to appease the protestors de jour.

Well Ock, this is kind of like asking "Southerners" to get over the fact that they lost the civil war.  lol  Seriously, for some it may seem that this is nitpicking but to others it is really offensive and hurtful.  I have learned in my time that reasonable people can have reasonably different responses to a variety of issues.  From my view this issue keeps coming up and that to me says there is something that needs resolution.  If changing the name is as simple as dropping the Nathan and just keeping the "Forrest or Forest" part that is an easy enough concession to make.  For heaven's sake  we are still stuck and likely will remain stuck with "Andrew Jackson" as our city's namesake, certainly a controversial historic figure to say the least.  Like you my family history is heavily rooted in the south but I can certainly understand others who do not share that heritage having a different take on this.

[Tacachale]

^Not to mention the many of us who do share that heritage but who don't base their Southernness on venerating the Confederacy.

[TheCat]

What a shame that people can't get over our own history and use that as an excuse to 'feel oppressed.' BULL SHIT!

What do you think ock? Do You think the fine families of Ponte Vedra would be okay if we developed a Nat Turner Park near Ponte Vedra High? Or, maybe we should just change the name of that school to Nat Turner High School of Leadership Development? Nat Turner was a leader amongst the oppressed. That's a powerful message.

You're right. Maybe, that's what needs to happen. Change the names of more schools not just Forrest! How do you feel about Black Panther Elementary instead of Alamacani? Or,  Elijah Muhammad Middle School instead of Fletcher? I'm sure the the people who are soooo tired of being politically correct will jump at the opportunity! Plus, history and heritage and stuff.

Slavery was never about 'hate, racism or even oppression,' since long before the Roman Empire slaves of every shade were bought and sold for economic reasons.

I'm not sure of your point here except "when in rome do the as the romans do"?  Are  you saying look at that bastion of all morality, Rome, if they did it's okay?

I'm not sure how you have slavery with out oppression? And, I'm not sure how "economic reasons" negates or disqualifies "hate, racism or even oppression". Do tell...

[Cheshire Cat]

^Not to mention the many of us who do share that heritage but who don't base their Southernness on venerating the Confederacy.

Keep in mind that many who are seen to be venerating the Confederacy are actually honoring the people in their lives/families who fought a battle the felt strongly enough to lose their lives over.  I am speaking in the sense of just honoring the people as opposed to the Confederate manifesto of the time.  Having had several family members who fought in the Civil War and died doing so, the fact that they fought for something that I will never be able to embrace does not lessen the valor of their convictions in their own eyes.  I also had some who fought on the side of the North and feel no differently toward them or their personal sacrifice. 

I think it is always important at times like this to realize that there were attitudes throughout the nation and even on the part of Lincoln himself that Blacks would never be equal to Whites.  The same was even true in the original constitution in which some wanted to include words protecting the right to keep slaves. 

[sheclown]

I  think it is just fine to honor our fathers who fought for their homes and their lives.  No problem. 

Naming a school after the founder of KKK is a different matter altogether.  IMHO.  Especially surrounding the circumstances.  Especially involving the children, those whose self-esteem needs a boost the most. 

It's a humiliation to put it mildly.

(Which I suspect was the intention when it was named).

[Cheshire Cat]

I  think it is just fine to honor our fathers who fought for their homes and their lives.  No problem. 

Naming a school after the founder of KKK is a different matter altogether.  IMHO.  Especially surrounding the circumstances.  Especially involving the children, those whose self-esteem needs a boost the most. 

It's a humiliation to put it mildly.

(Which I suspect was the intention when it was named).

Indeed. 

[mandy6488]

So i have a question since we have a African American ( Black ) President should they have to change it from The White House to The Black House?? I do not understand why they would even consider changing the name of a high school just because of the sheer fact of the History behind it. There is alot of things that was ok to do and say back it the early days. That is the reason it is called History right?  But yet in our School system they do not say the Pledge of Allegiance and can not say Prayer any longer.I know we did when i was in school. But yet they are starting to make our kids learn about muslim and other religions. Am I the only one that sees a bigger Problem in our school systems then the name of a School? But yet this is what our country has come to, lets worry about a small issue to cover up the bigger issues. I stand for the name of the high school that has been in this city since the 50's.

....Apparently prayer and the Pledge did nothing to help your grammar and spelling and even less to open your mind. I would love to break down the idiocy of this post sentence by sentence but instead I will say...Go away racist troll. 

[Ocklawaha]

Therein lays a great point Cheshire Cat, if people knew the true history of Lincoln and many of his ideas, his image would be of our money in a heartbeat.

Let's also not forget that the 'Great Emancipator' fully endorsed and ramped up another war, not a war about 'rights', 'slaves' or 'freedom' but a war of EXTERMINATION on our American Indian population. Where are the calls for revoking his memory? We've made this racist man into a god. Lincoln would have rounded up every Black man and woman back onto the ships and dump them in Africa, though many had never been there and had no idea of the languages or cultures.

I just don't think the focus on military genius is a bad thing. Be it Grant slaughtering repeated divisions of his own army but winning through attrition, or Field Marshall Erwin Rommel reading Forrest's tactics.

A bit more detail:

Forrest is often reviled for his pre-war activity of trading slaves, and it's true that not only was he a slave trader, he was quite successful at it.

Forrest was also determined that slaves should be treated humanely. He had a list of men that he refused to sell slaves to because they were known as cruel masters. Forrest also allowed newly purchased slaves a measure of self-determination that was unheard of in that day and age. He would give the slave a pass to move about town with the instructions to "find the man you would like to be your master, and I will then sell you to that man."

Nathan Bedford Forrest: The Slave Owner

It would seem that Forrest was well-regarded by his own slaves as well. When he formed his own cavalry unit, he offered his male slaves the opportunity to ride with him and fight for the Confederacy. In return, if they served honorably, they would be given their freedom at war's end, win or lose. Forty-five men accepted the offer, and 44 stayed with him through the end of the war. In 1863, well before the end of the war, Forrest drew up the papers freeing them all.

Of these 45 newly freed men, 44 stayed with him and continued to serve in the Confederate Army until the end of the war. The one other man returned home to nurse his dying wife. In 1876, Forrest wrote, "Those boys stayed with me...and better Confederates did not live...

But let's focus on the word 'KLAN' and what it means today and completely throw out its immediate post war purpose. When it turned racist, Forrest bailed and actually served to bust it up.

But let's just focus on the Klan... POLITICALLY CORRECT BULL SHIT!

[Cheshire Cat]

Therein lays a great point Cheshire Cat, if people knew the true history of Lincoln and many of his ideas, his image would be of our money in a heartbeat.

Let's also not forget that the 'Great Emancipator' fully endorsed and ramped up another war, not a war about 'rights', 'slaves' or 'freedom' but a war of EXTERMINATION on our American Indian population. Where are the calls for revoking his memory? We've made this racist man into a god. Lincoln would have rounded up every Black man and woman back onto the ships and dump them in Africa, though many had never been there and had no idea of the languages or cultures.

I just don't think the focus on military genius is a bad thing. Be it Grant slaughtering repeated divisions of his own army but winning through attrition, or Field Marshall Erwin Rommel reading Forrest's tactics.

A bit more detail:

Forrest is often reviled for his pre-war activity of trading slaves, and it's true that not only was he a slave trader, he was quite successful at it.

Forrest was also determined that slaves should be treated humanely. He had a list of men that he refused to sell slaves to because they were known as cruel masters. Forrest also allowed newly purchased slaves a measure of self-determination that was unheard of in that day and age. He would give the slave a pass to move about town with the instructions to "find the man you would like to be your master, and I will then sell you to that man."

Nathan Bedford Forrest: The Slave Owner

It would seem that Forrest was well-regarded by his own slaves as well. When he formed his own cavalry unit, he offered his male slaves the opportunity to ride with him and fight for the Confederacy. In return, if they served honorably, they would be given their freedom at war's end, win or lose. Forty-five men accepted the offer, and 44 stayed with him through the end of the war. In 1863, well before the end of the war, Forrest drew up the papers freeing them all.

Of these 45 newly freed men, 44 stayed with him and continued to serve in the Confederate Army until the end of the war. The one other man returned home to nurse his dying wife. In 1876, Forrest wrote, "Those boys stayed with me...and better Confederates did not live...

But let's focus on the word 'KLAN' and what it means today and completely throw out its immediate post war purpose. When it turned racist, Forrest bailed and actually served to bust it up.

But let's just focus on the Klan... POLITICALLY CORRECT BULL SHIT!

Are you calling BS because the Klan was only part of the problem and not the issue in it's entirety?

[HangingMoth]

I think "Mayor Alvin Brown Presents PS #241" has a nice ring to it.

[Cheshire Cat]

I think "Mayor Alvin Brown Presents PS #241" has a nice ring to it.

I don't.  lol  There actually is no good reason for most buildings to be named after folks living or dead.  In some cases perhaps, but not most.

[Ocklawaha]

But let's just focus on the Klan... POLITICALLY CORRECT BULL SHIT!

Are you calling BS because the Klan was only part of the problem and not the issue in it's entirety?
[/quote]

The man actually had a pretty incredible life and went from ignorant poverty to slave trader and Confederate General. He wrote the book on MODERN calvary tactics. Became a early Civil Rights leader, asked forgiveness and went against the grain of Memphis to assist Black families lift themselves from oblivion.

The BS is the singular focus on his brief time with the Klan, which by the way has never been proved to any satisfaction.

[thelakelander]

The man actually had a pretty incredible life and went from ignorant poverty to slave trader and Confederate General. He wrote the book on MODERN calvary tactics. Became a early Civil Rights leader, asked forgiveness and went against the grain of Memphis to assist Black families lift themselves from oblivion.

Is this the reason his name was given to this school?  If not........