Are Skyscrapers Overrated?

[thelakelander]

I don't think it's so much the expectation of tons of retail as the exposure of that retail.  There's little in the way of signage to indicate to passersby that there is retail in those buildings.

Speaking of street-level retail, I see that another office furniture showroom is opening in either the Atlantic Bank Annex or 121 Atlantic Place, I forget which?

Workscapes, Inc.  It will be great to see another existing empty street level space filled!

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2013/06/workscapes-inc-building-out-downtown.html

[I-10east]

City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...

[CityLife]

City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...

You do understand the context of what you are arguing though right? You're comparing milk to orange juice. If every skyscraper in New York had ground floor retail, every retailer in the city would close in 2 weeks. However,  if a skyscraper in NYC is located in an area that is desirable for retail, in all likelihood it interacts with the street and has restaurants, shops, bars, etc.

Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.

[I-10east]

Okay, everyone loves Charlotte right, so vibrant right? Post pics of Charlotte's tallest buildings' streetscapes? BTW, I'm not sure how they look; How bout Charlotte's BOA, Hearst, Duke Energy Center, and Marriott? Office buildings are designed for workers moreso than tourist, esp in second tier markets. Wanna know why there aren't signs littered outside most office buildings? They kinda are an eyesore for a beautiful granite facade building, and the workers know were the cafes, stores etc are inside.

[thelakelander]

I-10, this is okay with you?

Here's BOA.  This space used to be a restaurant called the Laura Street Cafe:



Unless you worked in the building, you would have never known there was a restaurant in the BOA at the corner of Forsyth & Laura.  Needless to say, this business closed and no one has leased the space in years. Wonder why?


Here's the original ground level plan of Independent Life Building, now the Wells Fargo Center:



Lots of shops. Now you would never know that, if driving down Bay or Laura Streets:



With these two examples (there are a lot more in DT Jax), the built infrastructure is already there.  All we need to do is embrace the street....

[I-10east]

Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.

Inside or outside? If outside, I certainly didn't see it on my trip back in 02', and I was on the other side apparently.

[JayBird]

^^^I can think of countless NYC skyscrapers that don't have any retail outside. It's just magnified because Jax is on such a smaller scale. I personally don't expect the Mall of America on the bottom floor of every office building. Hell, look at the Empire State Building, all entrances; I don't see any fancy-schmancy parasol lined streets with cafes incorporated within ESB's first floor. There are other types of building ie Chamberlain's, parking garages etc that is better for that sorta thing IMO. I think that expecting tons of retail within the first floor of an office building is kinda nit picky, as most have their stores, cafes, etc inside the building. Just my opinion.

I-10 you must have never seen the ESB or even looked at it on Google street view.  With the exception of lobbies for the top level tourist floors (on 5th ave) and two lobbies on 34th and 33rd streets for the offices, the entire street level is retail and a portion of the basement level as well.  It has everything from a Walgreens, to a great brew house restaurant to jewelry and mobile phone stores as well as cafes and bakeries.  And outside dining on the 33rd street side and on the Ave of America side. Most skyscrapers (600+ feet) on manhattan do have retail because the object is to make money off all available floor space.

It has nothing to do with what zip code you build in, if the density is there the retail will follow.  I believe places like the BOA bldg (where my Jax office is) isn't targeting the people on the street.  Their market is those of us in the building or going to the bank branch.

[CityLife]

Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.

Inside or outside? If outside, I certainly didn't see it on my trip back in 02', and I was on the other side apparently.

Direct entrance off the street and visible at street level. Google it.

[thelakelander]

Stephen, I don't know why Charlotte is being referenced but give me a minute or two and I'll post a few pics.

[I-10east]

Lake, I personally think that the BOA cafe closed down because of the recession more than anything. Would've a sign helped some? Yes. Would that sign prevent it from closing? I dunno, I have my doubts on that one. Remember, the old Starbucks with it's 'ideal big city sign' outside ultimately fell victim to closure.

[CityLife]

City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...

You do understand the context of what you are arguing though right? You're comparing milk to orange juice. If every skyscraper in New York had ground floor retail, every retailer in the city would close in 2 weeks. However,  if a skyscraper in NYC is located in an area that is desirable for retail, in all likelihood it interacts with the street and has restaurants, shops, bars, etc.

Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.

Meh.  Skyscrapers are skyscrapers and retail is retail.  Im not sure that there is some magic property of geography that makes some principle of function work.

What New York has going for it is density, and Skyscrapers, if properly filled are density creators.  That works no differently in New York, Yonkers or Jacksonville.

I'll see your meh and raise you a bleh.

Are you saying that our BOA Tower would have the same retail demand at Pearl and Beaver as it does at Laura and Bay? 

[thelakelander]

The street level scene at a few Uptown Charlotte highrises. There appears to be ample street level retail and interaction between those spaces and the sidewalks next to them....

[thelakelander]

I believe places like the BOA bldg (where my Jax office is) isn't targeting the people on the street.  Their market is those of us in the building or going to the bank branch.

I agree. That's the reason most of those businesses ultimately fail.  Since half the towers are half empty, tenants alone can't support the ground level retail.  It's one of the low hanging fruit I believe we should pick pretty quickly in our efforts to revitalize downtown.

[CityLife]

City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...

You do understand the context of what you are arguing though right? You're comparing milk to orange juice. If every skyscraper in New York had ground floor retail, every retailer in the city would close in 2 weeks. However,  if a skyscraper in NYC is located in an area that is desirable for retail, in all likelihood it interacts with the street and has restaurants, shops, bars, etc.

Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.

Meh.  Skyscrapers are skyscrapers and retail is retail.  Im not sure that there is some magic property of geography that makes some principle of function work.

What New York has going for it is density, and Skyscrapers, if properly filled are density creators.  That works no differently in New York, Yonkers or Jacksonville.

I'll see your meh and raise you a bleh.

Are you saying that our BOA Tower would have the same retail demand at Pearl and Beaver as it does at Laura and Bay?

yes

So a country like China can just build a bunch of skyscrapers in the middle of nowhere and automatically create retail demand.....gotcha. Seems to be working out well.

[simms3]

I think it's reasonable to say that most traditional office buildings aren't very suitable for the kind of retail or mix of complementing uses that activate a space beyond typical work hours.

That being said, I-10 East, no offense, but I don't think you're totally up to speed on any of this.  Once you reach employment density of 100,000 ppsm, which is normally only achieved through tower construction (the District in DC notwithstanding), you need services, retail, and restaurants in high density to serve these employees at least during ~15-18 hours of the day, which is better than we have now anywhere in Jax (in terms of activity).  You'll actually find a TON of retail in office buildings lining every commercial street in Manhattan, in SF, in Boston, in Philadelphia, in Seattle, heck even Nashville and Charlotte.

Also, that kind of employment density attracts residential development and hotel development, both of which provide a different but highly beneficial demand for more goods/services in the immediate area.

My firm owns or has owned many office towers in many of the top markets here in the US (solid retail in almost every tower we have ever owned), and currently we are spending tons of money on a few to "activate" their bases to make them more attractive to new age tenants (this becomes more difficult when you have the HQ of a silk stocking law firm or a major investment bank or financial services firms...but this isn't most office buildings).  We are spending $10.5M on a building I work on here in SF.  Our neighbor is spending $12M a block away.  Others are doing similar things.

Unfortunately for Jax, landlords there aren't as well capitalized, aren't seeing office rent growth, aren't benefiting from employment growth in the area (Everbank tower notwithstanding), and are basically still relying on city incentives and low taxes to keep them afloat rather than city leadership propping up the fundamentals which drive value in their buildings, allowing them to find financing or justify additional equity to improve their buildings or even build new.

We have an office building where we budgeted $75K to make minor improvements to the office lobby (140,000 SF 8 floor building where we projected a certain rent).  Rents have been higher so we went to committee and asked for a $250K budget and got it.  No retail in this tower's lobby (though a 55,000 SF flagship ROSS on first 3 floors that does not use lobby).  I just wanted to point this out because in Jax you don't have rent growth.  It's hard enough finding tenants to put in these buildings...LLs really can't justify an additional capital committment without a sign that the overall market and submarket will improve, which at this point requires city leadership, which is just not there.