Are Skyscrapers Overrated?

[urbaknight]

I personally want to see more skyscrapers Downtown. However, I do think that we need to make an effort to fill what we have first. I also believe that if we did that, we'd be very close to the vibrancy that we want to achieve, or at least start to achieve. we have enough buildings to do that right now.

I also believe those South Philly style row houses would be good for the LaVilla neighborhood. I remember visiting my great grandmother. she lived in a row house, and they were great for density.

Running buses (especially the urban core buses) twice as often and at least several hours later than they do now. Add in trains and/or streetcars would be a great help, especially if they were electric. We wouldn't be burning as much gasoline, better for the environment.

But we won't do any of that with our current leadership.

[CityLife]

City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...

You do understand the context of what you are arguing though right? You're comparing milk to orange juice. If every skyscraper in New York had ground floor retail, every retailer in the city would close in 2 weeks. However,  if a skyscraper in NYC is located in an area that is desirable for retail, in all likelihood it interacts with the street and has restaurants, shops, bars, etc.

Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.

Meh.  Skyscrapers are skyscrapers and retail is retail.  Im not sure that there is some magic property of geography that makes some principle of function work.

What New York has going for it is density, and Skyscrapers, if properly filled are density creators.  That works no differently in New York, Yonkers or Jacksonville.

I'll see your meh and raise you a bleh.

Are you saying that our BOA Tower would have the same retail demand at Pearl and Beaver as it does at Laura and Bay?

yes

So a country like China can just build a bunch of skyscrapers in the middle of nowhere and automatically create retail demand.....gotcha. Seems to be working out well.

interesting leap of logic, City Life.  Im not sure what on earth it has to do with the discussion (or reality) but then again, thats why your the planning professional, right?

Is it your professional opinion that Jacksonville is either in China or has no residents that could support a single skyscraper?

You missed the point. The point was that skyscrapers aren't "density creators". If they were you could put a skyscraper anywhere on earth and literally create a dense, vibrant area. Hence the China ghost town analogy.

You can't put a skyscraper at Pearl and Beaver and expect it to create a vibrant streetfront....however, whether there is a skyscraper or a 2 story building at Laura and  Bay Street, you can darn well expect there to be retail demand due to its strategic location. In this instance, as Lake and others have pointed out, the architects, developers, and city failed to design buildings along Laura that would create a vibrant, pedestrian friendly street scene.

[I-10east]

Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.

Do you know about when that Walgreens opened shop by any chance? It's seem like it was under construction with a bunch of scaffold outside on google (which is notorious for being outta date) From the 34th Street and 5th Street sides, I see a big difference from 02'.

[CityLife]

Well, as arch as that sounds, City, you are also wrong.

There's nothing to argue...unless you can dispel these two claims. 1. The strategic location at Bay and Laura is far more desirable for retail than the outer parts of DT. 2. Said buildings were not designed to properly create a vibrant street scene.

If you can dispel those claims (which I have heard numerous people in the real estate and planning world also say) then go ahead and do so. Otherwise, save your time in arguing semantics in an attempt to steer the argument away from the relevant points at hand.

[I-10east]

Stephen, I don't know why Charlotte is being referenced but give me a minute or two and I'll post a few pics.

thanks Lake.  I 10 is there any reason or particular thing that you would like to see about Charlotte's skyscrapers?

They aight. Particularly the restaurants that are built within the skyscrapers at street level. Certainly there not New York four facade retail monsters, but they are good enough for Charlotte, and certainly would be welcome in Jax.

[CityLife]

Well, as arch as that sounds, City, you are also wrong.

There's nothing to argue...unless you can dispel these two claims. 1. The strategic location at Bay and Laura is far more desirable for retail than the outer parts of DT. 2. Said buildings were not designed to properly create a vibrant street scene.

If you can dispel those claims (which I have heard numerous people in the real estate and planning world also say) then go ahead and do so. Otherwise, save your time in arguing semantics in an attempt to steer the argument away from the relevant points at hand.

again, i am busy at the moment, yet still serene in the knowledge that you are wrong.  Patience.  Its a virtue

The whole world eagerly awaits while you Google. In the meantime, I suggest you and others read the article I posted earlier in the thread.

http://assemblepapers.com.au/2013/06/13/cities-for-people-jan-gehl/?goback=.gde_97473_member_249724420

[I-10east]

When in doubt, you can always count on Stephen debating with someone consistently. I'm glad to have escaped out of the line of fire, whew!

[JayBird]

Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.

Do you know about when that Walgreens opened shop by any chance? It's seem like it was under construction with a bunch of scaffold outside on google (which is notorious for being outta date) From the 34th Street and 5th Street sides, I see a big difference from 02'.

Innaccurate once again I-10, this certainly isn't one of your better threads.  Google in NYC updates every three months, however it is more like 15-20 days.  This is obtained by a google car that remains in the five boroughs.  That scaffolding was erected in May to do work on the upper portion of the ESB.  Walgreens has been in that current space since summer or fall of 2011.  The space they occupied in the ESB prior to that is now a fitness center.  Walgreens first moved into the ESB in the late 90's and have moved within the building twice.

In 2006 the facade was reverted back to its original look, but the retail areas street side in the bldg haven't changed since the 80's.  surprisingly, the biggest problem the ESB had was keeping its office space filled.

[Ocklawaha]

Are Skyscrapers Overrated?

Only if your city doesn't have any.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Are Skyscrapers Overrated?

Only if your city doesn't have any.

This my friend is why this tread was created in the first place.