We Love Avondale Attempts to Ruin Christmas Event

[KEGreene1]

Diane - I agree with your position.  However, the others also made a very valid point.  How do you negotiate in good faith with a group who has continued to say "If you do this, we will be okay" yet after MM makes the requested changes, they ask for more?  I relate it to a blackmailer.  I've always heard you never agree to a blackmailer's terms because they will never let you go.  You pay them once, they will keep coming back. 

That said, how do you propose dealing with a group who has behaved in this manner?

[Cheshire Cat]

KE Greene, you can't negotiate in good conscience under those conditions especially with people who don't want compromise but rather insist on having it all their way. Adults understand that you don't always get what you want just the way you want it.  Too many are not acting like adults but rather like petulant and spoiled children  This is why those in opposition to MM need to stop the nonsense and negotiate in good faith, then keep their word. Those in support of MM need to avoid a discourse that expresses distaste with the residents of Avondale or "all" the merchants.  They need to air all their fears and when those fears are dealt with, let the deal proceed.  Bottom line is that MM is fully within the law with regard to their proposals, whether or not opponents like that, those seem to be the facts.  It would behoove those who are constantly changing the ground rules to stop this foolish posturing IMO.   MM will open in Avondale, there is plenty of prosperity to go around.  Parking will go to the customers of the various establishments that are willing to walk or take the time for a space to open up.  That will impact all business equally. Just a half block from the core is Boone Park where parking is always available if shop patrons would walk a little these days, including us locals.

It would be a lot nicer all the way around if people would come to the realization that this deal will get done and something must go in to replace that mess of a station.  Any future problems after the restaurant is open if there are any, can be dealt with at that time.  Bottom line is that MM is not going to invest time and money into a failing enterprise, so it may be a good idea to welcome them and come to terms with the idea.  If an amicable resolution is not come to between all parties, it will result in a long protracted legal fight that will still see MM in Avondale in the end anyway.  This is a battle that need never happen and should not happen.  A case of cutting ones nose off to spite ones face if there every was one.  There is a win, win in here folks. 


Diane M.

[wsansewjs]

Josh, we are talking about a pizza shop and petty adult bickering, not race relations. You know that.  Let's keep the discourse about the topic please and not create drama where there is none. Until folks learn how to do that and get past knee jerk commentary, there will be little hope for advancement of any salient point. 

Diane M.

Diane, I don't think you get my over-exaggerations and sarcastic remarks. Additionally, I never pointed fingers to the people of Avondale, only to the organizations who are being mean to a business who are trying to build one with good intention, but being ransacked to the bare minimum. For the record, Avondale is a fantastic little corner of the city, and I have enjoyed my visit there from time to time.

However, my concern is FOR the residents of Avondale, and they have a mess on their hands. The mess is an entity or two (WLA, and maybe RAP to certain extent) that "claims" to represent the residents of Avondale that contradicts the majority of the residents and their beliefs is abusing their authority and does NOT represent them truthfully and to the best interest.

I do agree with some of your statements including the brand recognition of Mellow Mushroom and how it can help bring in more new patrons to the shoppe of Avondale, which translates to more business for other shops / restaurants in the neighboring area.

-Josh

[Cheshire Cat]

Bless your heart Josh.  I know you mean well. 


Diane M.

[strider]

By and by, Mellow Mushroom's principals did exactly the right thing by being involved in the community they will be doing business in.  It makes no difference if the "other side" decided to cause trouble or not, MM needed to be there.  There is no other right way to deal with bullies, and this is exactly what this is, WLA and to some extent, RAP, are being bullies.  It did not blow up in MM's face, it blew up in WLA's face.  It might have been uncomfortable for MM but when doing the right thing in the face of adversity, it is seldom anything but uncomfortable.   It is still very much the right thing to do.

[Cheshire Cat]

That is a valid view as well strider.  For me it comes down to thinking about others and the families that would be there that evening and not making a personal or business point by either side at what is supposed to be a joyful event for all attending.  It's a PR thing in the end and it was incredibly dumb and selfish for someone to choose this venue to go after MM.  Of course MM property owners had every right to be there, they had the paperwork and followed the rules that is absolutely true. Attempts to shut them down, whoever was behind it, was small minded, petty and plain mean spirited.  In the end it will be up to the MM principals to decide if their position was helped, hurt on not affected by the choice to be a part of the event that night. Of course one should always stand their ground especially in the face of bullying.  The how and when one does that is the question IMO.  Perhaps its because I have been around a long time and have learned a good deal of patience, especially when it comes to making a point on an issue like this which will turn on what the public thinks they saw which was confrontation.  The ugly that night then spun into outrage and angry conversation which is not moving the issue forward in a positive way for any of the involved parties. That's where maturity was lacking.  None of this should have happened to begin with.   Had I been in MM's place given the choice I would have still held a holiday event within the rules and in my own time on my own property on another night.  Instead the issue was forced during what should have been a fun filled Christmas activity and public service effort.   Had they done their own event the following Saturday, MM would have stood out front in the eyes of the public for their positive actions as opposed to having to defend themselves in a public situation where they could not explain to onlookers what was going down.  The point could have been made, ground stood and good PR come out of it all.   That's my point.


Diane M.

[Cheshire Cat]

Stephen, I think the view you and Strider both have is quite valid.  I would have done things a bit differently for PR reasons but the choice was theirs to make, not mine.

I have reached a place in life where I have little to no patience for people behaving so badly or pretentiously as was done by the person or persons who chose a public Christmas event to stir up problems. It was a pathetic thing to do and very, very selfish of them seeing as this event was geared to family enjoyment not underhanded business posturing.   My hope would be that as a community and society we could all get past these petty behaviors.  This is such an easy win for all involved. WLA needs to take time out and RAP needs to be independent of the efforts of WLA. From where I am sitting WLA loves the will of WLA and not the entire community.  They certainly do not speak for all of us that much is sure.  The thing that is needed is for those doing the bargaining to stick to the terms they agree to and move on.   MM will be in the shops in the end.  Lets find that middle ground, stick to it and get the place open.  It will all work out so the "little red hens" can stop their "squawking" cause the sky is not falling people, it's a pizza place for heavens sake



Diane. 

[Pinky]

Josh, most Avondale residents don't see the shops of Avondale as Holy ground.  LOL  They are lovely to have, make no mistake about it, but the idea that residents of Avondale are all against a pizza shop because the community is just to good for them is inaccurate.  What is behind every objection to the new business is some sort of fear and when people are fearful, they don't negotiate or listen well much of the time. The list of fears goes something like this.  Fear of change, fear of parking loss, fear of more parking on surrounding streets, fear of lost income on the part of other businesses and restaurants, fear of alcohol, fear of noise and fear of lost ambiance.  I am sure I could name more if I thought about it. 

As someone who has worked in both the areas of historic preservation and commercial revitalization a few things are glaringly apparent.  First is that all this drama over a new shop is over the top and not needed.  Secondly, you can bet your sweet bippy the MM pizza shop "will" come to Avondale in one form or another.  They have followed the rules, are not breaking laws and have tried to comply with area residents. This can become a long drawn out pissing match and legal battle or people can decide to move forward together in an amicable way.  Moving forward in an amicable way is the way out of this mess.  I feel that many just don't realize that if they can speak and listen with reason, all the what if's can be worked through and end up with an improvement to the shops and the area.  The shops and the neighborhood will go on as they have now for many more years to come and you can bet that the businesses will change, grow, succeed and fail as they always have regardless of what people fear may or may not happen.  On that note, I would simply ask that while this discussion continues that the entire community and it's residents not be verbally trashed in the process or because of the actions of a few.  Avondale is full of good, happy and down to earth people and businesses that should not be hurt because of this drama.  I hope that all who have fought on both sides tooth and nail over this will stop the drama, it is really time to grow up on all sides. 

Yes MM is a franchise, but what amazes me is that some in the shops who fear the competition or added traffic just don't see that having this well known franchise will be a financial draw to other restaurants and businesses.  The pizza chain has name recognition and that alone can bring new people and new patrons to the shops that will in turn enrich the pockets of other businesses in our little town.  The restaurants all offer venues different enough that someone who may come to the shops once for pizza may return another day to go to the brick or have breakfast at the Fox.  Others who would come for the pizza will find and array of really cool specialty shops and patronize those. They are not seeing the forest for the trees.

The gas station is one that I frequented and patronized in order to shop and spend my money locally and help to keep a small business alive.  It was taxes that did the station in.  I know this because I had several conversations with the owner about it.  The station itself was and is wholly unattractive and pretty much everyone knows it should go away.  No, it is not historic or worth saving.  The empty station lot has however provided some needed parking and it is for this reason alone that some would rather keep the old eyesore and fight anything that will take away haphazard parking lot the station has now become. 

The residents near the shops do know that it means they will deal with a bit more noise and parking congestion.  Some bristle at the thought, but I don't think anyone held their heels to the fire and made them buy homes where they did.  While they can expect some relief from noise, waste disposal and the like, moaning and groaning that the business will prove to be an imposition does not really wash as they have always had these issues to deal with.  If they can't stand it any longer than relocate to another area of Avondale or Jacksonville.  There is just too much bellyaching going on by some who have know the dynamic of his area for ages.  Get over it.

Lady, I gotta be honest with you; you're wrong.  Not just a little wrong, you're Very Wrong. 

First off, you're wrong about "both sides being intractable"; Anyone who has followed this story from the beginning knows that Valentino has *continuously* looked for a cooperative and collaborative solution to the concerns being brought by the Avondale Porch Nazis.  But no matter how much he's given, it's never enough, and the reason is because the "neighborhood concerns" are being whipped up to provide cover for the real motives, which are fear of competition and nothing more.  This poor bastard just tried to open a f-ing PIZZA JOINT and ended up with a Major Jerkaround.  So no, Diane, both sides are NOT being intractable, just one.

Secondly, you're wrong about "MM should have not participated" in the Avondale event; Are other non-merchants-association businesses and property owners expected to shutter their businesses while the Merchants Association has their shindig, or just MM?  Lets face it, the Porch Nazis just got their Depends in a wad because any sign of MM actually *occupying* their own property is highly troubling to them, but that's not a valid reason for Valentino to pass on an opportunity to give something back to the huge number of Avondalians who are happy that he's coming to The Shoppes. 

Finally, and it's sort of ancillary to the topic at hand, but it does substantiate how wrong you persist in being and so I'll bring it up; Judd didn't go out of business because of "the taxes".  Judd went out of business because Judd *sucked* as a mechanic.  Then he lost his ability to sell gasoline because he couldn't come up with the money to bring his old leaky underground storage tanks into compliance with modern regulations, and having no repair customers, had to close the place up.  So unless there's a Crap Mechanic Tax, or a Poor Business Decisions Surcharge that I'm unaware of, you persist in wrongness.

[Cheshire Cat]

You are correct Stephen.  I have not delved into all the ins and outs of this deal or the others like the Loft, Alpha Dog etc. and am speaking to this thread issue only as opposed to all the other things like ordinances etc which are so often problematic if not downright obstructive.  I do know what MM is and personally I don't see the threat others do in their presence in Avondale.  The restaurant will do just fine, draw good folks and customers for all the businesses.  I believe MM will be good neighbors given the chance, but they must be given a chance.    My point is that this is a restaurant with a bar like others in this town and in the shops of Avondale, not the end of the world nor something that should have become such a divisive issue.   Your comments in some ways support my own views which are that overall getting things done in Jacksonville is far more difficult than it need be.  As for Jim Love I have no idea what his agenda is.



Diane M.

[Cheshire Cat]

That is your view Pinky and you are welcome to it as you well know.   

I have already stated, I would have done things differently with regard to the Christmas event because of the PR hazard it presented.  That is just my take on the situation, it does not make it right or wrong, just my view.  At this point my sole wish is for people to cut the BS and get down to positive business as opposed to playing games and verbally trashing someone who simply wants to do business in Avondale.  At the same time there is nothing to be served by verbally trashing the area, it's residents or businesses either.

I take it Pinky you are a supporter of MM and as such your responding in angst to my words suggests you somehow feel I am saying MM players could have or should do anything differently in negotiating with the community for the restaurant location. I don't. However if you take a breath and re read, my posts you may understand that I don't see the threat this restaurant poses. I believe they will be in the shops and will be good for the area.  I think they have dealt legally and fairly and had the right to be at the Christmas event.  I would have made a different choice about the Christmas event, but must tell you I am clearly not as emotionally attached to this issue as others are and I think the emotions are making the situation more complex and confused than it need be.  The point underlying it all however is this crazy idea I have that grown ups should act like grownups and not pretentious, bickering children.

By the way, I did sign my name on all my posting.  It's Diane Melendez, not "Lady".  Kindly remember that in the future please. Thank you in advance for that courtesy



Diane M.

[Cliffs_Daughter]

Where are you at these days, Cliffs_Daughter?

Hey, Lake - I'm in Columbus OH now. Been here since April.

[thelakelander]

Nice.  I was pretty impressed with Short North when I drove through there this past July.

[02roadking]

If WLA or anyone else did not want anything of substance at the gas station property, they had ample opportunity to purchase the parcel for whatever they deemed appropriate.

[strider]

What some are not picking up on here is that if Mellow Mushroom had not been at the event, WLA would be using the lack of participation to show that they are right and MM does not care about the community.  Not participating in the event would have been a worse PR issue than having someone, probably WLA supporters, call in ABT.  While with a playground bully,  knocking them down a time or two will solve the problem, with the type of bully that is WLA you need to stand your ground, take their best shots and remain standing.  This works only because bullies like WLA depend on lies and deceit to get what they want, therefore, by standing strong with the truth of things, you can survive and then prosper.  MM seems like they are doing just fine.

[Adam W]

There is an awful lot of conjecture in this thread which has been accepted as fact by many, if not most, of us. We'd probably do well to take a step back and tone down the rhetoric a bit. I think I agree with that part of Diane's point. And I think it applies to my own posts as much as anyone else's.