New JTA leader could mean new direction for authority

[CityLife]

I said to myself on 3 different occasions "F Jacksonville", while driving home yesterday. I heard about the accident at JTB and 95, so jumped on 9A (I'm coming from St. Augustine) and figured I'd pick my wife up at work the Town Center for dinner and let traffic clear up. We ate for about an hour and got on JTB to drive DT. JTB was a disaster, so I hopped on Belfort to cut through to the Hart Bridge and there was still traffic there. Just a disaster. Commuter rail please....

But on the UNF bus thing. You can't compare UNF to UF/FSU which are both urban campuses and where about 80+% of the students live within a couple miles of campus. UNF's student population is far less and much more spread out. The cost of operating a UNF system across the Southside/Beaches/DT and so on, would be FAR greater than the revenue generated...and I don't think UNF has the kind of cash to subsidize it. I'd rather JTA focus on transportation that will either stimulate growth and/or not be a financial drain.

[Tacachale]

But on the UNF bus thing. You can't compare UNF to UF/FSU which are both urban campuses and where about 80+% of the students live within a couple miles of campus. UNF's student population is far less and much more spread out. The cost of operating a UNF system across the Southside/Beaches/DT and so on, would be FAR greater than the revenue generated...and I don't think UNF has the kind of cash to subsidize it. I'd rather JTA focus on transportation that will either stimulate growth and/or not be a financial drain.

The biggest difference in the schools' logistics is that UF and FSU are fairly centrally located in small college towns where their students and staff make up a huge portion of the population (especially UF). Those schools heavily drove the growth around them in what were formerly pretty rural settings. In contrast, UNF was an isolated commuter-dependent campus on the outskirts of a much larger city, and the growth around it has been suburban.

Currently, the UNF "Osprey Connector" shuttle system is just that - it just shuttles people around the campus, with one route that goes to the mall. It's totally independent of the JTA Southside system, which does exist and runs to UNF (it's just not very good). Additionally, as it's free to ride, it makes exactly no revenue. As I said, we're currently talking to JTA about discounted fares for UNF students. However, I don't see it making a huge difference until JTA's service really improves.

In the future the UNF shuttle system will necessarily be expanded. What I'd hope for that it continues serving the campus and perhaps some other close-by areas, and that the public transit options continue to improve as we develop. The fear, however, is that we keep to the area but JTA doesn't step up. Alternately, down the road, we may see something like a smaller version of the FSU "Seminole Express", which goes to a wider area and serves to compliment Tallahassee's (crappy) bus system. It's logistically unlikely we'll ever see something like the UF system, which is entirely integrated into Gainesville's (awesome) bus system.

[Ocklawaha]

16,500 students and faculty at UNF,  7,535  FSCJ full time and 18,151 part time, 751 more at Edward Waters College, 3,715 over at JU and toss in 1,753 more at the FCSL.

THE SCHOOLS PART:
What I'm talking about is a small addition to the cost of attending the area schools, a fee that would include a JTA UNLIMITED bus pass good for the school year.

THE JTA PART:
Survey the schools, see where the most valuable services would originate and where they would go. Study an inter-school/library connector system, one that would almost certainly include a link to the Skyway or downtown area. JTA has community shuttles, so one must consider why they can't make the students a prime part of their system. The old line that 'Jacksonville is just to spread out,' or that 'UNF, JU, EWC etc. are likewise just too suburban,' is a copout. UNF is surrounded by student apartments, so is JU, there is simply no excuse that service can't be or isn't provided.

[CityLife]

Here is a link to the map of Seminole Express. It is about 2 miles north to south in the map (probably the size of UNF's entire campus). I'd guess that there are about 40-60 thousand people (mostly students of FSU, TCC, and FAMU) who live in that area. There isn't that type of population density anywhere in Jacksonville, let alone near suburban UNF.

http://parking.fsu.edu/Seminole%20Express/All%20Routes.html

Additionally, FSU is the most pedestrian/bike friendly campus in the state university system. The school has closed down a lot of internal roads, infilled surface lots, and built wide bike/ped paths. This has encouraged more walking, biking, and use of the bus system. You simply can't compare UNF to urban schools like UF and FSU. Maybe look at what UCF and USF do. They have far more in common with UNF....

I'm not saying JTA can't somehow find a way to make it work, just that it is MUCH harder to make it work here, versus Tallahassee and Gainesville. Look to Orlando and Tampa to see how they service their suburban, largely commuter campuses.

[cline]

UF/FSU have made it a priority to encourage bike/ped/transit as the means for students getting to class.  It is nearly impossible to park on campus.  When I went to UF I rode the bus simply because there was no easy way to park on campus.  UNF is not at that point yet so you're going to have a hard time convincing students to ditch their cars.  As was mentioned earlier, most of the students at UF/FSU that don't live on campus live within a very close radius to it- the same cannot be said for UNF.  It is still trying to shake the commuter school reputation.

[Tacachale]

^That's very true. But at UNF there's clearly a demand for transit options that's not being met by JTA. I can tell you we wouldn't be running a campus shuttle if people didn't use it, nor would the apartment complexes pay for their own shuttles as an amenity for residents. And some UNF students do take the bus, walk and bike to campus, despite the whole area being pretty inhospitable for that.

At some stage transit will be expanded at and around UNF. Ideally, JTA steps up and offers improved service, potentially combined with investment from UNF. However, we may just end up extending the campus system to other areas near campus (FSU is hardly unique in doing this, UCF does it as well).

All this said, I don't see UNF students even in the immediate vicinity of campus really warming to the JTA bus (or paying a fee for the privilege) until the service was really improved and the mentality accordingly shifts.

[CityLife]

^That's very true. But at UNF there's clearly a demand for transit options that's not being met by JTA. I can tell you we wouldn't be running a campus shuttle if people didn't use it, nor would the apartment complexes pay for their own shuttles as an amenity for residents. And some UNF students do take the bus, walk and bike to campus, despite the whole area being pretty inhospitable for that.

At some stage transit will be expanded at and around UNF. Ideally, JTA steps up and offers improved service, potentially combined with investment from UNF. However, we may just end up extending the campus system to other areas near campus (FSU is hardly unique in doing this, UCF does it as well).

All this said, I don't see UNF students even in the immediate vicinity of campus really warming to the JTA bus (or paying a fee for the privilege) until the service was really improved and the mentality accordingly shifts.

I don't get it. You say there's clearly a demand for transit options at UNF, but then say you don't see UNF students in the vicinity of campus warming to the JTA bus. And really, how many students live off campus, but within about 2-5 miles?

[jaxjags]

I think some thought should be given to a fixed trolley circulation route for UNF, SJTC, Deerwood and Tinseltown. This area has shopping,businesses, housing. A correctly placed parking garage would encourage off site parking for SJTC. The problem is JTA focuses on roads, downtown and large projects, ie commuter rail.

[Tacachale]

^That's very true. But at UNF there's clearly a demand for transit options that's not being met by JTA. I can tell you we wouldn't be running a campus shuttle if people didn't use it, nor would the apartment complexes pay for their own shuttles as an amenity for residents. And some UNF students do take the bus, walk and bike to campus, despite the whole area being pretty inhospitable for that.

At some stage transit will be expanded at and around UNF. Ideally, JTA steps up and offers improved service, potentially combined with investment from UNF. However, we may just end up extending the campus system to other areas near campus (FSU is hardly unique in doing this, UCF does it as well).

All this said, I don't see UNF students even in the immediate vicinity of campus really warming to the JTA bus (or paying a fee for the privilege) until the service was really improved and the mentality accordingly shifts.

I don't get it. You say there's clearly a demand for transit options at UNF, but then say you don't see UNF students in the vicinity of campus warming to the JTA bus. And really, how many students live off campus, but within about 2-5 miles?

I said there's demand for transit, not necessarily demand for JTA's offerings as they are now. I think many more students would use transit if there was better, more consistent service.

I don't know how many UNF students live within 5 miles of campus, but I suspect it's a good number of the total student body. There are 4,000 students living on campus this year. Additionally, off Kernan between Beach and JTB there are three good sized apartment complexes that cater largely to students. They have around 1500 units between them, and probably a good 1000 of the residents are students, not to mention students who live in the housing developments there. Even without decent (JTA) bus service, many of those students are already using transit of a sort. One of the complexes is accessible to the Osprey Connector (which it uses as a big selling point), while another pays for its own shuttle to campus.

And this is just that one stretch of Kernan. Many of the apartments and houses on Gate, Beach, Hodges, and possibly even Baymeadows are within 2-5 miles of campus. Of course it's nothing like UF or FSU, but I believe there are a lot more students who would use public transit if it were a real option, and others would chose to live closer to campus as well.

[thelakelander]

I think some thought should be given to a fixed trolley circulation route for UNF, SJTC, Deerwood and Tinseltown. This area has shopping,businesses, housing. A correctly placed parking garage would encourage off site parking for SJTC. The problem is JTA focuses on roads, downtown and large projects, ie commuter rail.

I assume you mean fixed rail? It would fail if it only served that area. The Southside is pretty sprawled. Any rail serving that area would need to be linked with the urban core, similar to Charlotte's and Houston's starter LRT lines to be successful. Given the landscape, you'd be looking at something in the price range of $300-$400 million.

[jaxjags]

I was thinking more to a electric street car type system. Similar to what stephendare describes for a Avondale/Riverside fixed trolley system circulation system. Less expensive and can cover a larger area. I would envision this connecting with DT using a true light rail system in the future when demand is there.

[dougskiles]

Thinking about UNF and transit, you would think that at the very least the BRT would go to the campus (within walking distance of most major destinations.)  I don't believe the current  BRT design gets anywhere near that close.  The problem though, is that UNF is pretty spread out and even if it did go to the center of campus, most people would find it too far to walk.

Given that, my preference is for JTA to focus its investments in areas of higher density that will lead to more pedestrian activity.  Like Riverside, Downtown, San Marco and Springfield/northside.

[thelakelander]

It's not practical to upgrade a streetcar line or BRT to LRT.  For the amount of money you'd be spending, you're better off (much cheaper) constructing LRT from the beginning if LRT is your long term goal.  The best places for small fixed rail systems in Jacksonville would be either the urban core or the beaches.  In those locations, on a per mile basis, you can serve a greater population with a much smaller capital investment.

On the flip end, the "edge city" of Tinseltown/SJCT, Deerwoood, etc. is so sprawled out, you'd never be able to get the ROI needed to make the capital investment in fixed transit worth it, unless its part of a more comprehensive network.  If looking for short term improvement, I know the mode would not be popular here, but to me that's an area where BRT-lite really makes sense.

[Mathew1056]

thelakelander, your are right. It is not practical for JTA to invest millions into one system with the intention of shuttering it once it can build something better. What you are forgetting is that government bureaucracy has a hard time looking at statics from a 3 dimensional perceptive. Take for instance the Miami Police Department. The department is running a surplus for the year, which should be a good thing. The problem is that if the department does not spend that money, when their budget is reassed for the following year it will lose out on further funding. It in the interest of the department to spend the rest of the money. In this case it bought two foreign luxury cars to partrol the highways. My point being, things don't always make sense in government spending.

[Ocklawaha]

The problem is JTA focuses on roads, downtown and large projects, ie commuter rail.

JTA focuses on commuter rail? Man what planet have you been on?