Is Riverside/Avondale Ready For Mellow Mushroom?

[cline]

So many thoughtful opinions have been expressed in this thread.  Now, fast forward 12 months and imagine what parking will be like with an additional 100 cars in the area.  I wonder how many of these opinions will be changed.

Well, people had their reservations about Mojo moving in and that died off.  I would imagine the MM concern will fade as well.  Next up....Monty's, when that opens up (revitalizes) as a restaurant.

[WmNussbaum]

might MM contribute to the problem? Possibly.

Possibly!!?? Absolutely

the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

The Historic District was hardly designed at all - that's why you have duplexes or larger apartment buildings across the street from very expensive houses. To the extent that transportation was a consideration when the District was built, the car was - and still is! - the primary desired means of transportation. Residents close by may walk to a MM, but folks in Ortega, Murray Hill, East Riverside, Lake Shore, Cedar Hills, and other areas are NOT going to incur the significant expense of a taxi to get there - or anywhere else; and they won't like the idea of a shuttle. Jacksonville is just not like large cities in which public transportation is the norm.

Why should MM take care of the parking problem when the other restaurants or other merchants did not have to do anything? BECAUSE MM came along after the jelly bean jar was full and wants to try to cram another 100 jelly beans into a jar that its predecessors filled up.

Someone observed that this problem won't affect me because my house is too far away. That's right even if MM gets what it wants. But what about when a buyer of West Inn gets the same benefit? And besides, as I walk the neighborhood, I'd like to not be dodging all the cars - moving or parked, and I am sympathetic to the plight of friends on Pine Street who will bear the brunt of the problem.

[Dashing Dan]

How hard would it be to use the parking facilities at FCSJ Thurs - Sat after 8:00pm with a dedicated shuttle?

There is both garage parking and open lot. 

I'm not sure how you could handle funding, but we're talking hundred of parking spots less than 1.5 miles away.

There are plenty of parking spaces in the Roosevelt Mall, and there's also room there for the Mellow Mushroom.

[cline]

The Historic District was hardly designed at all - that's why you have duplexes or larger apartment buildings across the street from very expensive houses. To the extent that transportation was a consideration when the District was built, the car was - and still is!

Actually, Avondale was designed.  It was designed by Telfair Stockton.  And the streetcar was also part of the design.  You might want to check out this thread.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-feb-urban-neighborhoods-avondale

[JeffreyS]

How about just more angled parking along the sides of the park at the west end of the Shoppes?  Short walk you could put a lot of street side parking (not a surface lot) along both of the streets that front the park there.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

How hard would it be to use the parking facilities at FCSJ Thurs - Sat after 8:00pm with a dedicated shuttle?

There is both garage parking and open lot. 

I'm not sure how you could handle funding, but we're talking hundred of parking spots less than 1.5 miles away.

There are plenty of parking spaces in the Roosevelt Mall, and there's also room there for the Mellow Mushroom.

Or just build a wall around Avondale and issue keys to residents and 'desirables'.   

[Dashing Dan]

How about leaving it as it is, and letting the overlay control the scale of future development?

[Dashing Dan]

Or just build a wall around Avondale and issue keys to residents and 'desirables'.   

Avondale is not an exclusionary neighborhood, not by any measure.

[Tacachale]

might MM contribute to the problem? Possibly.

Possibly!!?? Absolutely

the historic district wasn't designed for cars to serve as the dominant transportation choice.

The Historic District was hardly designed at all - that's why you have duplexes or larger apartment buildings across the street from very expensive houses. To the extent that transportation was a consideration when the District was built, the car was - and still is! - the primary desired means of transportation. Residents close by may walk to a MM, but folks in Ortega, Murray Hill, East Riverside, Lake Shore, Cedar Hills, and other areas are NOT going to incur the significant expense of a taxi to get there - or anywhere else; and they won't like the idea of a shuttle. Jacksonville is just not like large cities in which public transportation is the norm.

Why should MM take care of the parking problem when the other restaurants or other merchants did not have to do anything? BECAUSE MM came along after the jelly bean jar was full and wants to try to cram another 100 jelly beans into a jar that its predecessors filled up.

Someone observed that this problem won't affect me because my house is too far away. That's right even if MM gets what it wants. But what about when a buyer of West Inn gets the same benefit? And besides, as I walk the neighborhood, I'd like to not be dodging all the cars - moving or parked, and I am sympathetic to the plight of friends on Pine Street who will bear the brunt of the problem.

More people would use public transportation if we had better public transportation - especially in the urban core. More short term, if more people in the neighborhood biked or walked to the strip it would reduce overall parking demand vis a vis the people who live too far away to do so. These seem like better solutions than artificially clamping down on infill and vibrancy and keeping buildings shuttered.

How about leaving it as it is, and letting the overlay control the scale of future development?

I still don't see how this would violate the intention of the overlay if it's just adapting already existing buildings.

[Dashing Dan]

How about leaving it as it is, and letting the overlay control the scale of future development?

because the overlay itself is a fundamentally flawed blueprint.

If you don't like the overlay then go ahead and try to change it.  In the meantime, it's the only guidepost that we have.

[MusicMan]

Does the Shoppes of Avondale Merchants Association have any say in this matter? I hate to see another place that size go in over there, especially pizza. If these guys went into Springfield they would fill an enormous hole in a neighborhood that would welcome them with open arms. There is a large hospital over there that has thousands of well paid employees who supplement the residents as potential customers.

I realize the MM guys are making a ton of money at their other locations, I personally do not see this as a good fit.

[mtraininjax]

The Historic District was hardly designed at all - that's why you have duplexes or larger apartment buildings across the street from very expensive houses. To the extent that transportation was a consideration when the District was built, the car was - and still is! - the primary desired means of transportation. Residents close by may walk to a MM, but folks in Ortega, Murray Hill, East Riverside, Lake Shore, Cedar Hills, and other areas are NOT going to incur the significant expense of a taxi to get there - or anywhere else; and they won't like the idea of a shuttle. Jacksonville is just not like large cities in which public transportation is the norm.

Like Cline said, Avondale was a real designated neighborhood, even a grid, with 4 primary streets running North South (Talbot, Edgewood, Challen and Avondale). One of the MAIN reasons we have duplexes and apartments came as a result of World War II, when the men went to fight the war, the wives had to figure out a way to bring in money (other than the secret service way), and they took in boarders and setup homes to act as duplexes and multi-family. Sure some apartments were built, but you'd be hard pressed to find any apartments on these 4 main streets in the Avondale area. Dr. Wood's Architectural History of Jacksonville shows the details of the development when it was created in the 20s.

There IS bus service right out in front of the Brick, so people can get there, if they so choose. Valentino could have setup shop in the old Harry's near the Roosevelt Mall, yeah, plenty of parking, but there is not a lot of restaurant traffic there and the retail is hit or miss, unless you need a mattress or some party items. Not exactly the same as being in Avondale.

Why should MM take care of the parking problem when the other restaurants or other merchants did not have to do anything? BECAUSE MM came along after the jelly bean jar was full and wants to try to cram another 100 jelly beans into a jar that its predecessors filled up.

What about when Biscotti's expanded? Went from 2 store fronts to 3, did people moan over it? We have a new sushi restaurant, yeah Sushi in Avondale, they are a GREAT addition, and people welcome them, just as we will for MM, because we WANT them there.

Someone observed that this problem won't affect me because my house is too far away. That's right even if MM gets what it wants. But what about when a buyer of West Inn gets the same benefit? And besides, as I walk the neighborhood, I'd like to not be dodging all the cars - moving or parked, and I am sympathetic to the plight of friends on Pine Street who will bear the brunt of the problem.

OK, here is what my grade school teacher taught me, Look both ways before crossing the street, and my parents told me not to play in the street because of the cars. Why not apply both? Eventually the area will need more people walking and biking because the density will become too great. Imagine Avondale as Town Center during Christmas season.

[Bewler]

might MM contribute to the problem? Possibly.

Possibly!!?? Absolutely

Good God, you would think they were trying to open a strip club the way some of you are acting. It's a Mellow Mushroom. People aren't going to come flocking in from all sides of town to eat there. There's already three other locations throughout the city, it's not exactly an exclusive landmark or some major dining experience. If anything The Brick and Biscottis already contribute to "the problem" of people like me driving over there and parking my car in the neighborhood because I can't get that kind of food just anywhere.

[mtraininjax]

Does the Shoppes of Avondale Merchants Association have any say in this matter? I hate to see another place that size go in over there, especially pizza. If these guys went into Springfield they would fill an enormous hole in a neighborhood that would welcome them with open arms. There is a large hospital over there that has thousands of well paid employees who supplement the residents as potential customers.

There is absolutely not enough retail traffic in Springfield for this to work. Remember the average MM costs between 1.7 and 2.5 million to start, and Valentino has gone to the local banks for 1 million in renovations. He has done his homework, is working with Jim Love, the councilman for District 14, they are working with RAP, this is a win-win-win for everyone involved.

I like Bluefish, Brick, Biscottis, Ginjo Sushi, 'town, Mojo's and I will love MM when they get there as well.  I may never see San Marco again. Not much need. This will bring in more money for all the merchants, who were originally skeptical, but Mojo's has proven to bring more people into the shops. It is a win-win-win.

Springfield needs more density of people shopping along Main Street, but Main is a mess with boarded up buildings and a stigma that the area is dying, not growing. Would you spend 2 million on a franchise in a dying area?

[Dashing Dan]

Good God, you would think they were trying to open a strip club the way some of you are acting. It's a Mellow Mushroom. People aren't going to come flocking in from all sides of town to eat there. There's already three other locations throughout the city, it's not exactly an exclusive landmark or some major dining experience.

I agree that yet another pizza restaurant is hardly worth bothering with. 

MM should find a way to fit in, and not ask to change the rules just so that they can make a pile of money for themselves.