Walkable Commercial Districts: 8th & Main

[strider]

When we first opened the thrift store,  we paid less than $ 5.00 a SF.  The talk when we close it was for between $ 7.50 and $ 9.00 per SF.   It was a struggle to get enough business to walk down Main in the best of times, it got harder when the bus stops and routes changed.

All the talk about how bad the improved Main Street is is totally non-productive.  It is a state highway.  It would be a pot holed filled wasteland if it wasn't and we would be much worse off.  Frankly, the lack of left turns and the medians should not be complained about, they should be used to show how to make an area like this walkable in today's world.  Is Main Street the only commercial corridor that is a state highway like this and facing these issues?  I think not.

Pocket parking lots in the 1/2 blocks off of Main.  Concentrate on 8th to 6th where the buildings still are.  Go after businesses that can service all of the residents of Springfield.  The businesses must be able to be supported by the residents that often do not drive and ride the bus.  Which makes the bus stops and routes even more important.  Businesses also need to draw people for other than lunch.  Lunch clientele seldom has the time to explore so they do not seem to help retail much.

Truly want a successful and walkable Main Street?  Get streetcar here first.  Think we need bike lanes?  Then work on the alleys to accomplish that.  That would also add a second business street presence for the businesses along Main Street.

By the way, the only paved pocket parking lot on Main Street was done years ago with a grant to help the businesses on Main Street.  The city had so much vision during the heady times a few years ago that they gave it away to SRG.  Wonder who has control of it now?

Overall, the area needs to be unique . Something to get people to want to come from other parts of Jacksonville or it will not succeed.

Just some thoughts from someone who has been there.

[simms3]

Doug...it's $12/SF a year, not month.  That's as cheap as you'll ever see rent for small tenant spaces anywhere, whether it's the ghetto or a struggling neighborhood center.  Aka, a dollar a square foot.

I TOTALLY agree that right now the area should take what it can get.  There may never be a Starbucks or Trader Joes in that area in our lifetime, so in the meanwhile a discount store that serves the current community and pays the rent is bueno.

I also agree that we wasted money on sidewalks/streetscaping there.  Nobody uses either.  What's the traffic count on Main?  8th?  We all know the people count is lowwww.  It's not a congested area.  The irony of this streetscape as opposed to others was that it (along with the St. Nicholas thing) was meant to spur economic development and foot traffic.  You're absolutely right...just because now it's a pretty sidewalk with 5 ft weeds does not mean people will all of a sudden want to use it.  Once an area becomes vibrant and there is foot traffic and a need to improve it, then do that.

I don't think food trucks there are a good idea, and they wouldn't work.  Not nearly enough people or foot traffic.  There are lots of food trucks where I live (and unfortunately they are highly regulated up here), and they locate to designated surface lots in otherwise extremely dense areas.  They rely on walk-up business from office workers, strollers, and nearby residents.  Nobody is going to drive to pick up food on wheels, especially not to Springfield.

[thelakelander]

Regarding food trucks, the article refers to crawls instead of permanent lots.  Crawls are special events (like music festivals or art walks) and in an urban location like Main Street, can be quite successful as long as the property housing them meets regulations and their promoted.  We're actually bouncing around the idea of pulling one together.  As for a permanent lot, some in the city and sit down restaurants would probably be against the idea but a lot would work well in the vicinity of the new courthouse when it opens.

[avs]

I think the crawl is a great idea, lakelander.  It is a special event that could pull people from out of SPR down here.  I think SPR folks would love it and come out for it.  And it is a great way to highlight the area. Food Trucks all the time there isn't traffic for, but the crawl is a grea idea.

[cline]

What's the traffic count on Main?  8th?  We all know the people count is lowwww.  It's not a congested area. 

Main Street south of 8th - 10,600

By comparison of another commercial district:
St. Johns Avenue west of the Shoppes of Avondale - 8,800

[simms3]

That's still low.  St. Johns is a low capacity road, but Main is 4 divided wide lanes, not too far off the capacity of Peachtree in front of my office building in Buckhead (AADT of 45,000 in front of my building).

A crawl would work, and a permanent location near the courthouse would also work.  There are already hot dog and similar stands nearby.

[cline]

Just pointing out that vibrancy is not necessarily dependent on traffic counts.

[Ocklawaha]

SOLUTION?

OCKLAWAHA

[strider]

SOLUTION?

OCKLAWAHA

Yes.

Does anyone have the ridership number comparisons between Riverside/ ST Vincents and Springfield/ Shands? 

[dougsandiego]

$12.00 per square foot per year is more like it, but if the interiors are so deteriorated, I can see the deterrent for people trying to start small businesses on a shoe string.

The property owners should get together and offer sweetners such as free rent for the first three-months or provide improvements to the point where a prospective tenant has an inhabitable "shell" they can finish. It is in the best interest of the owners to get their buildings occupied.

I own a small 19th century building on Fourth Avenue in San Diego. It was very presentable, but I still offered a free month's rent to allow the tenant to do his improvements. He did a wonderful job and now has a thriving business, WetStone Wine Bar, and I have a rented space with a quality small business who provides a part time job to one of the tenants in the apartments above. I agree with Lakelander. Don't go for homeruns. It is the accumulation of small improvements that creates a lively city.

[iloveionia]

^^^^^ tell that to the people who hamper our growth.  We all get it.  They (landlords, owners, and some other ninnies,) don't get it.

[simms3]

Most landlords may provide either abatements (usually 1 month is really low, never happens), tenant improvement allowances that can range from either $10/SF on the low end to $100/SF on the high end (do the math yourself...if rent is $12/SF, then $10/SF in TI is basically like 10 months free rent to use that money for improvements).

The difference between abatements and improvements is in when the money is collected (or "saved").  A lease usually stipulates that a tenant occupy the premises within a certain time frame.  Rent commencement begins at occupancy.  Before occupancy, there is usually a scramble of interior buildout so that the lease is not nullified and some provision missed.  Often times upon occupancy, a lease will stipulate the hours a business is to stay open and for what days.  This is especially true for local tenants in depressed centers or areas.

If a tenant is given tenant improvement allowances, there might be draws like a construction loan, but it is front ended.  It may be reimbursed and balanced out, but it all happens before occupancy.  The lease will stipulate construction details no matter if there are TI allowances or not.  In abatements, the tenant must cover the improvements his or her self, possibly having to take out a loan, which is difficult to do nowadays and risky for both parties.  The tenant then "saves" that money or a portion thereof over the period of the abatement by not paying base rent.  The tenant would still probably be on the hook for common area maintenance, insurance, real estate taxes, and other reimbursable expenses, or would have to pay all or most of that himself if it is some type of net property.

Long story short, $12/SF does not tell the whole picture.  The tenant improvement allowances would tell a much better picture.  If they are basically limitless, allowing any tenant who signs an LOI to lease space on Main to do whatever he needs to do, and there are STILL no tenants coming to the area, then that is indicative more of the area than the landlord.

With unique spaces like these, if the Landlords were to start building the spaces out to make them look more presentable, that might limit who would use that space (and there is already an extremely tight limit on available tenants over there).  I think it's smart that they keep the buildings standing, present a picture of what could be, and go for more creativity on the tenant's part.  Many of the highest rent buildings near me are 19th century wood/brick shells.  Was just at a contemporary art center in an old warehouse that had gallery space and 14 studios for local contemporary artists to work.  It looked like a stable with a few nice finishes and white walls here and there.

[simms3]

Just pointing out that vibrancy is not necessarily dependent on traffic counts.

Aside from pedestrian malls, all of the "vibrant" places I have ever been are congested with people, bikes, and/or cars.  Main is congested with none.  Vehicular traffic is about the most important measure for retailers and other tenant types in every market/submarket/street aside from a streets in a few cities here in NA.  Billboards and LED displays along highways in LA, Houston, and Atlanta fetch 5th Ave type prices because 300,000+ cars pass by every day.  Tenants who want to put up a logo on a visible building along a highway with same traffic counts pay dearly for it.

Few national/credit retailers will locate to any space on a street with less than 20,000 cars going by a day.  High end tenants want either a major urban shopping street, a major mall in a wealthy area, or a street in a nice area with at least 50,000 cars going by a day.

I can see tumbleweeds blowing down Main at its current state.  I hope that it improves, but cars or not, it's not vibrant, and cars are the best measure for vibrancy here in America, even in Manhattan (along with sidewalk people counts).

[Ocklawaha]

Sweet Pete's and Three Layers both prove that a quality business product doesn't need 200,000 cars a day. I don't think anyone is deluded into thinking we're going to turn Main Street or 8Th into a small version of Town Center, but then who would want to?  If you've seen one Walgreen's or Target store, you've seen them all, it's the unique, cutting edge, organic shops that bring real vibrant interest, witness 5-Points, or San Marco. Had SPAR not fallen in with a bunch of narrow minded thugs, 8Th and Main would already be there.

OCKLAWAHA

[simms3]

^^^That's two small businesses, not on Main, catering specifically to the local residents, within an entire square mile area.  Main was once a commercial strip with dozens of similar small businesses.  I suppose there is City Kids (is that still there?) and a couple businesses, but I question those who only lay blame at the landlords and I must point out at some point traffic/visibility does play an important role, even and especially for small businesses.

What has SPAR done specifically to prevent businesses from coming to the area?  What businesses have looked at expanding or locating to Springfield?  I'm sure there are few and SPAR seems to have quite a bad rap...I just don't know the details.