San Marco Boulevard: Before & After

[duvaldude08]

It's looking good over there, but as someone alluded to earlier - are they fixing the flooding problems? The cosmetic stuff is great, but the flooding over there was terrible anytime there was a significant amount of rain. I know one business that closed due to water damage from flooding caused by rain water. Hopefully they spent money on that part of it along with everything else.

It was also stated earlier that there was alot of infastructure done as well.

[Tacachale]

It's looking good over there, but as someone alluded to earlier - are they fixing the flooding problems? The cosmetic stuff is great, but the flooding over there was terrible anytime there was a significant amount of rain. I know one business that closed due to water damage from flooding caused by rain water. Hopefully they spent money on that part of it along with everything else.

They're adding new storm drains that should reduce, but not eliminate the flooding problem. There are plans to add a new pump station in the area (on LaSalle Street) that should take care of most of the rest of it. That's not part of this project though.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-18/story/san_marco_merchants_brace_for_road_reconstruction

[krazeeboi]

Palms are fine for a highway interchange, but are not appropriate, at least not as the dominant planting, when pedestrians are added to the mix.   

I disagree; they can be very much appropriate. Older urban cities where species of palm trees grow well go do a great job of having those trees dominate along their most urban and active streets. I understand the advantage of planting shade trees, but one advantage that palm trees confer in those older cities is that they don't block the architecture of the buildings--which is why most Northern cities don't plant shade trees along their urban streets.

New Orleans:


Charleston:


(photos by Metro Jacksonville)

[thelakelander]

Two things that stand out in the New Orleans and Charleston images are the presence of building awnings and density.  Both help with protecting pedestrians from extreme conditions, so their palms serve more of visual than functional purpose within the streetscapes.

Btw, Hollywood, FL did a pretty good job of integrating palms, building awnings and outdoor seating into their urban streetscape:

[krazeeboi]

Awnings are pretty standard on any urban street, even in Northern cities, and increased building density should be the goal for streets within any area targeted for urban revitalization. Those aren't special conditions that serve as substitutes for shade trees. Personally, I like it when coastal cities use palms along their urban thoroughfares, even predominantly; it contributes to a sense of place and is visually appealing. It seems to be more of a Sunbelt mentality to plant shade trees along urban streets which eventually come to obscure the architecture of the buildings, and I think a legitimate argument can be made that such architecture should be exposed; after all, isn't the point of architecture to admire and inspire? Pretty hard to do that when trees are in the way.

[Dashing Dan]

Don't palms attract rats and roaches?

[thelakelander]

They're special for Jax because the majority of our urban commercial districts no longer have them.  We're literally in a situation where we have to teach our community the make up of good urban design all over again.

Nevertheless, the ultimate function of street trees is to provide shade and buffer for the pedestrian.  You can accomplish that with shade trees or palms (depending on spacing and tree type) and still be able to admire architecture from your car (a much lower priority than providing a sound pedestrian environment, imo).  Coral Gables is a great example of putting all of these elements together.



You can still see the architecture in Coral Gables.  The shade trees, palm trees and building awnings are designed to work together in providing the function of protecting the pedestrian.  Also, if a community is going to go with palms, then space them close enough to provide shade for the pedestrian

[krazeeboi]

Who said anything about admiring the architecture from your car? I mean from a pedestrian standpoint.

Understand, I'm not saying that I'm against shade trees per se, but I disagree with the sentiment that non-shade trees (like palms) are inappropriate for an urban street as the New Orleans and Charleston photos demonstrate.

[thelakelander]

From a pedestrian standpoint, neither has to cover up architecture.  That's a function of proper design.   Greenville's Main Street is a great example of this.  Nevertheless, I understand where you're coming from, although I find walking down Charleston's King Street a little uncomfortable during the summer months.  It could use some shade trees but given the width of the ROW, they may not be appropriate, so continuous awnings work better in that context.  Anyway, if you want palms, you just need to make sure they are spaced properly to provide the core function of street trees within a pedestrian environment, which is to provide shade.  I think at the core of this topic, the actual spacing of trees is something that is typically overlooked.

[Debbie Thompson]

Not to mention roots.  Many shade trees large enough to provide pedestrian shade have extensive root systems not appropriate for sidewalk settings. 

[exnewsman]

One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.

[acme54321]

One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.

I think after they are done with the initial curbwork they will be coming back over the whole thing and laying down the last layer of asphalt.

[cline]

One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.

There's no way it can be any worse than the section of Riverside between Margaret and King Street.  That section of road is abysmal and is an embarassment.  Pot holes, man holes, patchwork of asphalt.  It needs to be completely resurfaced.

[exnewsman]

One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.

True enough. That area is indeed horrible. I was referring more to Riverside Ave as you enter Brooklyn - up to Forrest St.
There's no way it can be any worse than the section of Riverside between Margaret and King Street.  That section of road is abysmal and is an embarassment.  Pot holes, man holes, patchwork of asphalt.  It needs to be completely resurfaced.

[exnewsman]

One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.

I think after they are done with the initial curbwork they will be coming back over the whole thing and laying down the last layer of asphalt.

I hope you are right. It certainly needs it.