Some church requests for tithes.

[Expree]

My goodness…… I guess I’m outnumbered on this religious thing.  I must think more on this, as these testimonies and mini bios seem to be crumbling my foundation.  Perhaps I am wrong in my atheism, as history has shown that truth and virtue resides always in the majority.  I will think.  In any case, I’ve enjoyed and appreciated warmly everyone’s posts, and will chew further upon them.  This is important to me, as at stake is the possibility that I will forever burn in hell.  This kind of thread I thoroughly enjoy, as it causes us to think and write about one of the most important issues for us humans.   

[Jaxson]

My goodness…… I guess I’m outnumbered on this religious thing.  I must think more on this, as these testimonies and mini bios seem to be crumbling my foundation.  Perhaps I am wrong in my atheism, as history has shown that truth and virtue resides always in the majority.  I will think.  In any case, I’ve enjoyed and appreciated warmly everyone’s posts, and will chew further upon them.  This is important to me, as at stake is the possibility that I will forever burn in hell.  This kind of thread I thoroughly enjoy, as it causes us to think and write about one of the most important issues for us humans.   

I think that is one of the hazards of organized religion.  We begin to treat personal philosophy like either a social club or a sales organization.  If someone is at ease with their own beliefs, why should recruitment matter?  If one's beliefs are strong enough, they should attract people without having to force them to agree, right?

[Expree]

Well, I’ll agree that sometimes organized religion is a hazard, but then one could discuss to what or whom it would be a hazard, and how it would be so.  And of course, everyone has a personal philosophy, simply because any philosophy resides within one’s person.  And it seems proper for most to recruit if they believe they are in the right, this is, if they wish their fellow citizens to reap the same benefits.  And I suppose the strength of one’s beliefs can affect the degree of attraction to one’s own beliefs.  However, I suspect that in the end, the truth or quality of one’s beliefs will better determine it’s attractive power.       

[Timkin]

IMO...there is a huge stretch between "organized religion" and just plain blind faith. I don't think its about being outnumbered or going with the majority.  There is the individual's position and that is as unique as the person.  

[jandar]

If you believe in ghosts, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in Aliens, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in Allah, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in Jesus and God, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in Mother Gaia, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in reincarnation (whether Hindu or Buddhist or some other way), some think you are crazy.
If you don't believe in any of these, some think you are crazy.

See the pattern?
Religion is different for everyone. Even in the same church, amongst the people sitting on the same pew for many years, there is a difference in how they think.

I've been called soulless for not attending church by family members. I've been told I'm going to hell for not believing in the same god as everyone else around me.

You can argue that the bible is a copy of sumerian and greek myths, and you'll be called out and people will get mad at your audacity of testing their faith.

Man has been trying to find an answer for everything, some things science can now prove how they work. Others, like what happens after you die, well, thats where the person comes in. Some will always believe in afterlife, others think that death is finite.

Have I seen stupid callous deaths where people tried to reason that god needed to take a brother and sister home to be with their younger brother while leaving their grieving parents childless? Yup.
Have I seen someone healed after believing in their hearts and even spiritual healing? Yup.
Does it prove to me that absence or proof of a god? Nope.

The ultimate test of a person's ability to get along with fellow man, is not to look down at anyone's belief and understand that your own beliefs might be looked down on just as strongly. Unfortunately, very few people on earth are truly capable of this. I catch myself quite often and try to remind myself of this.

[Expree]

Yes Stephen, I've heard of Charles Fort.  I think he was a late 19th / early 20th century writer on unexplained phenomena.  The book I remember is "The Book of the Damned".  In any case, I recall casually looking through the book.  I will look again however for good substance... for me that is. 

The Charles Fort name brings up the post by Timkin, which seems to be of the unexplained Fort variety. Timkin's partial posting follows:

" As he was taking his final breaths, around 5:45pm,  observed by myself and my sister, My Mother , and the Hospice Nurse,  we noticed the fan was slowing down and picking back up speed.. this went on for several minutes..

Shortly after his last breath , and the Nurse verifying his passing, the Fan completely stopped.. (never to run again)and the rose petals began falling off on to the table.  I had to ask the others if I was nuts , or was this really happening..

That may sound insane or bizarre, but so help me, that is what we observed..   And that is why I say , I believe there are things going on around us , that we cannot see, and maybe
cannot physically feel , but they ARE , nonetheless happening.

  I happen to be a firm believer in God. "

My question to Timkin is whether or not there were any cameras recording in the room, and if not, would all witnesses in the room be willing to take a lie detector test about the claims of  "unexplained phenomena" in the room?  If there were any films of the fan stopping and the rose petals dropping, then this could be one of the most important events in the history of  mankind, as it would support a proof that there is really something out there somewhere affecting we humans in the mysterious ways we've always wondered about, perhaps even a god. 

If there were no cameras, and if there is no successful lie detector tests affirming the claimed events, then I would be inclined to place the "Timkin fan and rose petal event" along with all the other unverifiable claims of miracles such as Christ's rising from the dead, Christ’s ascension into the heavens, Muhammad‘s ascension too, Christ‘s walking upon water, the parting of the Red Sea waters, the birth of Jesus from a virgin, the burning bush, etc etc.  Of course we don’t worry about verifications of Zeus’s or Apollo’s actions because we no longer believe, as our ancestor’s did, in these particular gods.  How ridiculous it was to believe in all those gods of the Greeks, and their Roman cousins. Thank goodness we’ve found newer, better gods.

Of course, the fan/rose petal event could be true, and all the other miracles mentioned above could be true.  But, forgive me when I say that every bit of life within me tells me it is all just man playing mental games and deceptions, as none of the above is supported by a shred of evidence.  All of the above however can be explained by man's ability, need and wish, to deceive, to exaggerate, to create something larger and more important than man, like a god; to believe sometimes the most unbelievable things, to allow their beliefs and worshipping to ascend to the highest levels of absurdity, to allow their desperation, ignorance, and inclination for blind faith to perpetuate beliefs in the many gods that have been worshiped for thousands of years, gods that have never existed except in the minds of men.

[Timkin]

Well, Expree, I can tell you, there were no camera recorders or any similar devices in the room. as to witnesses , I have no idea where the Hospice Nurse is today.  My Mother passed June 13,2004, so she can not attest to the events so that leaves my sister and I , and I would G L A D L Y submit to a lie detector test.  I have little doubt she would as well. It is otherwise, as you readily deemed it, an unverifiable claim, since I am not posting here to IMPRESS anyone , but simply state what I experienced and I would have absolutely ZERO reason to make it up.   If you think my experience and all of the others you have outlined above are absolute untruths ,then so be it.That is your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion.

  I do believe in God. I do believe there are things, events, however one wants to term it going on around us that we cannot physically see, physically feel , and quite possibly not even physically hear.  There are believers and non-believers , just as there are various religions, viewpoints of religion, etc.  Its like saying there are no such thing as radio waves, because you cannot see or feel them, but you hear them in the end ,because the radio plays.. But you cannot see the wave being transmitted, or feel it, or catch it, or video or sound record it, so it must be made up   The radio plays music, just ,because I guess.   The same must hold true for wireless or television.. no doubt, those as well are some how rigged. 

From my perspective, I KNOW , I do not think,  I KNOW, what I saw with my eyes.  I do not know what to make of it , why it happened , or what , if any significance there was to the events as I stated.  It simply reminded me that there is more to this paradox , we call life , than meets the eye.

I never called the events that transpired that evening "miracles"  You can refuse to believe it if you wish. no offense taken here.   

I will happily submit to a lie-detector test.

[BridgeTroll]

Your last paragraph says the most...

Of course, the fan/rose petal event could be true, and all the other miracles mentioned above could be true.  But, forgive me when I say that every bit of life within me tells me it is all just man playing mental games and deceptions, as none of the above is supported by a shred of evidence.  All of the above however can be explained by man's ability, need and wish, to deceive, to exaggerate, to create something larger and more important than man, like a god; to believe sometimes the most unbelievable things, to allow their beliefs and worshipping to ascend to the highest levels of absurdity, to allow their desperation, ignorance, and inclination for blind faith to perpetuate beliefs in the many gods that have been worshiped for thousands of years, gods that have never existed except in the minds of men.

I tend to think as you do... all the way to... "...to believe sometimes the most unbelievable things".

What follows is where I part ways with the atheists or secularists.  The argument that follows goes on to list the "absurdity, desperation, and ignorance", of people who believe.  And this simply is not so.  Some of these folks may be absurd, desperate or ignorant... but simply being a "believer" does not make them so.  The atheists and secularists never include all the wonderful, good, and amazing things religion does for these people.

Is it really necessary to put down believers in order to prop up your beliefs?

[Garden guy]

Is it really necessary to put down believers in order to prop up your beliefs?

IT is  when for history the religious have been not only allowed but pushed to step on those that don't believe their words or beliefs....they've had thousands of years to practice....i say no rules...just because they believe in something does'nt make them "special" and the fact that cities and governments have moved mountains for jesus people.....all is fair.

(quote fixed - OCK)

[Ocklawaha]

"special" and the fact that cities and governments have moved mountains for jesus people...."

...all the other unverifiable claims of miracles such as Christ's rising from the dead, Christ’s ascension into the heavens, Muhammad‘s ascension too, Christ‘s walking upon water, the parting of the Red Sea waters, the birth of Jesus from a virgin, the burning bush, etc etc.  Of course we don’t worry about verifications of Zeus’s or Apollo’s actions because we no longer believe, as our ancestor’s did, in these particular gods.  How ridiculous it was to believe in all those gods of the Greeks, and their Roman cousins. Thank goodness we’ve found newer, better gods.

...All of the above however can be explained by man's ability, need and wish, to deceive, to exaggerate, to create something larger and more important than man, like a god; to believe sometimes the most unbelievable things, to allow their beliefs and worshipping to ascend to the highest levels of absurdity, to allow their desperation, ignorance, and inclination for blind faith to perpetuate beliefs in the many gods that have been worshiped for thousands of years, gods that have never existed except in the minds of men.

Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Holy Bible, John 20:29

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Photoshop? Not in 1917 when these were taken. Looks like another fine case Doctor Watson! Sir Conan Doyle, the author of the world-renowned Sherlock Holmes BELIEVED the Cottingley Fairies were real. The girls in 1983 that the photos were rigged, but only because the fairies wouldn't allow themselves to be photographed and suggested this as a substitute.  But that not where the fun starts, look carefully at the bottom image of the little girl... The same little girl as a grown woman would not comment on that! ...WINGS!  Too cool, so the Cottingley Fairies live on... and remember where ever the mushrooms spring up, that is the location where the fairies last danced in the night and vanished...

OCKLAWAHA

[Live_Oak]

Photoshop? Not in 1917 when these were taken. Looks like another fine case Doctor Watson! Sir Conan Doyle, the author of the world-renowned Sherlock Holmes BELIEVED the Cottingley Fairies were real. The girls in 1983 that the photos were rigged, but only because the fairies wouldn't allow themselves to be photographed and suggested this as a substitute.  But that not where the fun starts, look carefully at the bottom image of the little girl... The same little girl as a grown woman would not comment on that! ...WINGS!  Too cool, so the Cottingley Fairies live on... and remember where ever the mushrooms spring up, that is the location where the fairies last danced in the night and vanished...

OCKLAWAHA

What's the point of this?

You believe in fairies now?

[ben says]

Can't we all at least agree...there's nothing different from believing in fairies and believing in god???

Really, can ANYONE make a strong argument saying there's a difference?

[Debbie Thompson]

Hebrews defines faith as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Think about that one for a minute.  The substance of something that does not yet exist?  The evidence of something you cannot actually see? 

As human beings, we tend to demand empirical evidence before we will believe something.  "I'm from Missouri, you have to show me first."

God, however, doesn't work that way.  God requires you to take a leap of faith FIRST, and only then do He become real to you.

So,  Ben, I cannot agree with you.  You see, having made the leap of faith, and experienced God working in my life, I have the proof.  I absolutely believe in Him. 

Fairies, not so much, although I'm open to the possibility.  I believe there are many wondrous things here on earth they eye of man has never seen, and are yet to be discovered.

[ben says]

Or believing in science.  Do you agree with that, ben says?

Would you concede that belief systems answer questions that science cannot even begin to answer?

No, I do not agree with your first statement. I'd actually say, anyone who agrees with that statement is certifiably insane. How can you lump together science with belief in things that can't be proven? It wouldn't be science if it couldn't be proven. Science is based on empiricism. Faith is based on...well...nothing.

I do not concede that belief systems can answer anything concrete. Just because science can't answer some things does not automatically mean faith can. It's not an either/or scenario.