Some church requests for tithes.

[Expree]

 If we were to contemplate or question the validity of the idea of there being a god of some kind, or gods for that matter, who daily affect we humans as we journey through our time on earth, we might discover a pervasive and subtle factor or pressure tending to support and perpetuate a population's belief that a god does exist; and this factor is, I might suggest, the way most individuals, even those who claim to be nonbelievers, use the word "god" in conversations, in the media, in the churches, in political speeches, and in millions of other instances each day. 

      It is interesting that of the thirteen posters on this thread so far, only six used the word "god" as a believer would: Timkin, Debbie Thompson, ben says, dougskiles, non-Redneck westsider, and wsansewjs.  The remaining seven are either atheists, or closet atheists, or simply did not have occasion to use the word in the first place on their posts.  I suspect that an individual discovers he or she is an atheist when they find it awkward and difficult to use the word "god" in the manner above; preferring to say: "a god of this or that", or "the idea of a god... ", or "It is their god who", etc.
 
     The very use of the word "god" in the manner of: "God says ...", or "The bible says God ..", or "I believe that God will..", or "By the grace of God..." etc., indicates a believer in "God", and strengthens the general acceptance of claims that a god actually exists.  Because we hear or read similar phrases several times each day, they serve as constant daily reminders of the god of the Christians, reinforcing the habit of believing that a god does exist, a habit passed from generation to generation for two thousand years for the Christian god, and for perhaps millions of years for the earlier gods. 
   
     In any case the believer's use of the word "god", even though in reality there may or may not be a god in our midst, certainly "promotes" the belief in the god of the Christians, and "perpetuates" this belief, whether it is true or not, and in spite of there not being, at least to my knowledge, a shred of evidence to support it.

Some books are undeservedly forgotten; none are undeservedly remembered. W. H. Auden 1962         

[Ocklawaha]

I think churches should be taxed like any other business....it is a business reguardless of what anyone says...

I agree Garden Guy, right up there with taxing the Masons, Historical Societies, Bridge Clubs, museums, private schools, colleges and universities, GARDEN CLUBS, art societies, music conservatory's, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Brownies, parks and library's.

...That and Spell Check says it's: r e g a r d l e s s.

Believe it or not there are some of us on this site who love the urban core as much as anyone and yes we do go to church and tithe (gasp!!). How could that be??

"All thinking men are atheists"

One of the better Hemingway quotes...ever.

"18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19. because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22. Professing to be wise, they became fools."

One of the better quotes from the book of Romans... ever.

To say that Europe is less religious than the US or vice versa is one of those spurious arguments for which you can have no proof regardless of who in your European family goes to church or not. Religious people are religious because they have certain spiritual convictions not because they belong to one denomination or another. Among their convictions may or may not be giving 10% of their wages to charity.

Actually Cricket, one of the reasons for this general belief is the age old practice of rolling the tithe and the taxes together in "State Churches," throughout Europe. It became a general practice to just claim no religion rather then step up and let the government reach in and take money from your pocket because of your religious convictions. This is one of the reasons our system was deemed superior by millions of immigrants who would then be free to donate as much or as little as they wished to any church, without dealing with the tax collector.

So are they more religious then us? Maybe so, maybe not, but they most certainly are more frugal!



I love the number of people who apparently think that some pastor invented this tithe idea, when in fact it came straight from GOD and was established as a sort of ancient welfare-food stamp program, and in addition it took care of the priests, their tribe and their families. The worked within the temple, the places of worship, and oversaw the historical and religious records, it was a calling that forbade ANY private business enterprise or ownership.

Can it be abused? CERTAINLY, hells bells one can abuse a Thanksgiving turkey, but that doesn't make Thanksgiving or the idea behind it bad. Imagine how cool society would be had we listened to Gods command and REALLY took care of the hungry, the tired, the poor. The geniuses in this country that have cashiered a perfect system now seem to live by "Give me your hungry, your tired, your poor, and I'll piss on them!"

Malachi 3:10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it"

Leviticus 27:30 "'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.

Numbers 18:21 "I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

Deuteronomy 12:6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.

Deuteronomy 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.

Deuteronomy 14:29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

2 Kings 7:2 The officer on whose arm the king was leaning said to the man of God, "Look, even if the LORD should open the floodgates of the heavens, could this happen?" "You will see it with your own eyes," answered Elisha, "but you will not eat any of it!"

2 Chronicles 31:10 and Azariah the chief priest, from the family of Zadok, answered, "Since the people began to bring their contributions to the temple of the LORD, we have had enough to eat and plenty to spare, because the LORD has blessed his people, and this great amount is left over."

Nehemiah 13:12 All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and oil into the storerooms.

Psalm 78:23 Yet he gave a command to the skies above and opened the doors of the heavens;

Proverbs 3:9 Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops;

Ezekiel 34:26 I will bless them and the places surrounding my hill. I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing.

Ezekiel 44:30 The best of all the firstfruits and of all your special gifts will belong to the priests. You are to give them the first portion of your ground meal so that a blessing may rest on your household.

Hosea 2:21 "In that day I will respond," declares the LORD--"I will respond to the skies, and they will respond to the earth;

Joel 2:19 The Lord will reply to them: "I am sending you grain, new wine and oil, enough to satisfy you fully; never again will I make you an object of scorn to the nations.

Joel 2:24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain; the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.

Haggai 2:19 Is there yet any seed left in the barn? Until now, the vine and the fig tree, the pomegranate and the olive tree have not borne fruit. "'From this day on I will bless you.'"

SOURCE: HOLY BIBLE, New International Version ©1984 by Biblica

OCKLAWAHA

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I'm not sure where the 'made up by some pastor' concept came from but it was probably in the OT (see below), but you are correct in stating that it is written in the bible.  Funny thing is, Ock, it seems that we all have a price set by the Almighty as told by Moses:
Levitcus 27: 

A man between the ages of twenty and sixty is valued at fifty shekels* of silver, as measured by the sanctuary shekel. 4 A woman of that age is valued at thirty shekels* of silver. 5 A boy between the ages of five and twenty is valued at twenty shekels of silver; a girl of that age is valued at ten shekels* of silver. 6 A boy between the ages of one month and five years is valued at five shekels of silver; a girl of that age is valued at three shekels* of silver. 7 A man older than sixty is valued at fifteen shekels of silver; a woman of that age is valued at ten shekels* of silver. 8 If you desire to make such a vow but cannot afford to pay the required amount, take the person to the priest. He will determine the amount for you to pay based on what you can afford.

I don’t know about you, but it seems kinda fishy to me at verse 8 : 8 If you desire to make such a vow but cannot afford to pay the required amount, take the person to the priest. He will determine the amount for you to pay based on what you can afford.[/i]

God has many collectors, the passages are too numerous to hash out, but here’s one that might pique your interest:

10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.
14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid more than once when I was in need. 17 Not that I desire your gifts; what I desire is that more be credited to your account. 18 I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. 19 And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.

Sorry, but to me, it sounds like an ancient form of collection service.  Even through in a little sales speak at verse 17. 

Tell me how these priests, these missionaries these servants of the Lord help me get to heaven?  They don’t.  You can give and give, but unless you have the Lord in your heart, you will have given for naught.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.

But I guess in my case, since I believe the bible carries as much weight as a good Clancy novel, then none of it really applies to me. 

I do believe that faith can cure & heal, but I also believe that blind faith does more harm than good.  The church is definitely a business, because it was written that way.

[Timkin]

Just curious , here ( and NOT standing in judgment of anyone) .........

Of all of the posters, participating in this particular thread.  Who has read the Bible , Cover to Cover??

I have not.  just curious who may have...

[Expree]

Well Ock, looks like you, bringing the total posters to 15 on this thread, come in as a believer in a god since you used the god word as: ".... when in fact it came straight from GOD and was established.....".  According to the "GOD USE WORD RULE", the score on the thread now is eight to seven, with the nonbelievers leading by one.

But of course, as suggested earlier, some of the other posters may also be believers, but it is difficult to determine at this point because they have not yet used the word "god" in their posts.  Actually, I suppose that the use of the word "lord" also would indicate whether or not the speaker believes there is a god in the scheme of things; that is, if used in the manner of "The Lord said....". etc.

Have I read the bible through from beginning to end? My goodness, certainly not, as it would be such drudgery.  I read just enough to get my mind wet, somehow realizing that it was only a collection of myths, stories, anecdotes, histories, rules of conduct, biographies of individuals, tribes and nations, written by men for all sorts of reasons, from different times, from different places, but most certainly written by men, to be consumed by men, and not written by some god.

[danno]

Have read it twice....

[dougskiles]

Once - but not all the way through, cover to cover, like you would another book.  And don't ask me to quote it.  And I don't pretend to have understood all of it.  The Bible is a conversation between God and me - and speaks to me differently each time I read from it.  Which, admittedly is not nearly enough.  In fact, I think now would be a good time to turn off the computer and read a few pages.

[Garden guy]

Just curious , here ( and NOT standing in judgment of anyone) .........

Of all of the posters, participating in this particular thread.  Who has read the Bible , Cover to Cover??

I have not.  just curious who may have...

I was raised very strick penticostal and had to read it...i believe once at the church when i was about 10 there was a read the whole bible thing...but i cant remember if i ever really finished it or not...

[ben says]

What's with all the Bible quotes?!

We do all realize this was a book written by humans, quite recently (in the grand scheme of human history), too.

I've never understood the point of quoting the book to make a point, anymore than I'd quote Tolstoy, Shakespeare, Robespierre, Plato, etc.

Don't we all feel a little foolish for our fellow men as they are duped by such frivolous stories...

Sorry, I clearly have zero tolerance for people who believe in made up stories...as I have no tolerance for anyone who comes up to me and says they believe in the Tooth Fairy.

[danno]

Just curious , here ( and NOT standing in judgment of anyone) .........

Of all of the posters, participating in this particular thread.  Who has read the Bible , Cover to Cover??

I have not.  just curious who may have...

I was raised very strick penticostal and had to read it...i believe once at the church when i was about 10 there was a read the whole bible thing...but i cant remember if i ever really finished it or not...

http://www.oneyearbibleonline.com/

[Expree]

I had no idea Stephen that you were raised so strongly in the Christian world, and find it interesting that you've read the bible so many times and actually survived with such remarkable mental attributes.  I must admit that I've read only a few dozen pages of the bible, having found it to be in too much disorder for good reading.  I do love history however, but prefer it in better form.

And since in all your posts, at least on this thread, you've never used the god word as a god-believer would; such as “God will punish … , or God says, etc….”, indicates that there's a good chance you've emerged without permanent damage from your early years of this heavy exposure.  It's remarkable that in spite of those earlier influences, you've not allowed your world view to be limited by or restricted to the Christian system.  There is hope.  Perhaps others too will see the freedom of thought and living that awaits them outside of the influences of dogmatic religious teachings and practices.  Yes, you've been through the valley of the shadow of ignorance, and have emerged mentally intact.  Praise Man.   

[Garden guy]

Stephen i know where you come from...we were a bit more conservative though...the women were not alllow to cut thier hair or wear pants or jewelry and i was thought that baptists, jews and catholics were going to hell....after going to college and a few world religion courses i kicked the god habit and realized that most religions are based in fear, lies and most really are cults..yes i can call the baptist church a cult...but not quit as much as the penticostal churches...it is funny to hear the words..."my grandmother was a leader of a cult..lol.....

[Dog Walker]

You want to know the difference between a cult and a mainstream Christian sect?  About sixty years and a few million dollars.

And my favorite definition of faith from a good friend; "Faith is forcing yourself to believe in something you know can't possibly be true."

I had a great uncle who, when asked when he felt the calling to become a Seventh Day Adventist minister, answered, "When plowing behind a mule on an August day in southern Georgia."

[Garden guy]

You want to know the difference between a cult and a mainstream Christian sect?  About sixty years and a few million dollars.

And my favorite definition of faith from a good friend; "Faith is forcing yourself to believe in something you know can't possibly be true."

I had a great uncle who, when asked when he felt the calling to become a Seventh Day Adventist minister, answered, "When plowing behind a mule on an August day in southern Georgia."

Too hilarious...and so true

[Shwaz]

Stephen i know where you come from...we were a bit more conservative though...the women were not alllow to cut thier hair or wear pants or jewelry and i was thought that baptists, jews and catholics were going to hell....after going to college and a few world religion courses i kicked the god habit and realized that most religions are based in fear, lies and most really are cults..yes i can call the baptist church a cult...but not quit as much as the penticostal churches...it is funny to hear the words..."my grandmother was a leader of a cult..lol.....

I love girls with no pants on.