Jax listed as one of Forbes' Most Miserable Cities

[ChriswUfGator]

These kinds of responses are why many people who I respect in Jacksonville do not give Metro Jacksonville the credibility that many here think it has.

Jacksonville has been great to my family for the last 10+ years.  Sure, I want it to be more and am willing to work very hard to make it more.  I don't disagree that some parts of our city have lots of misery, but I would challenge anyone to find any city on earth that doesn't have pockets of 'misery'.

I don't believe that this kind of talk will motivate anyone to support change.  We have to sell the positive side, not the negative side.  I believe most people want to be inspired not insulted.

Yeah, your view of MJ's credibility and $4.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...

FWIW, I think your posts speak for themselves about credibility. I acknowledge the problems and want them fixed, while you get testy and question others' credibility for speaking what is unquestionably the truth, albeit an unpleasant truth. Denying the obvious speaks to your credibility, not mine, or this site's.

And if MJ is so non-credible, why is it that every Mayorial candidate has their Q&A session on this site? Lol....

[thelakelander]

There's a huge difference between the credibility of MJ and the credibility of individuals participating in the discussion board.  Official MJ articles are shown on the front page.  The articles on the front page are researched and fact checked before going online.  The discussion board is a place where every individual is given the ability to discuss and debate their opinions on various local topics and issues.  

[ChriswUfGator]

Ah, Lake, the post quality has more to do with it than that. Case in point, how do you feel the commentary on the T-U's website affects the public's ability to take that site seriously? Or if you'd like an example;

Beautiful work, Gentlemen.  I would like to really thank ChriswUfGator and Lake for providing me with more intellectual content and substantive perspective on these issues then I have ever gotten anywhere else.  And just when I was beginning to believe civil public discourse was dead!  As a result, I have really begun to re-examine my support for a new convention facility being built in the immediate future. The real pity we will never see this kind of in-depth exchange between those currently vying for public office.  

or,

You are right on about this being the only real game in town for true public debate.  More in depth analysis, less name calling than anything else that is even close.  The comments you read on the TU are a complete embarassment to our city.  This stuff is real.

These posters weren't commenting on your front-page article, they were specifically complimenting the quality of the content provided by the MJ message-board posters. Without the discussion forums, this would be just another unread urban planning blog, which there is hardly any shortage of online. The content on the forums certainly affects the public perception and credibility of the site, in this case positively.

Someone slamming the "credibility" of a person or group that doesn't agree with them is an extremely common tactic, you've been through that a million times. Look at SPAR. But I think it's silly to say the discussion content doesn't affect the quality of the site, oftentimes the forum posters have more information on a given topic than you guys dig up, that is nicely additive to the issue. Other times, like with Jacksonville.com, the commentary is so asinine it becomes impossible to take the site seriously. You guys do an excellent job, not only with your articles, but also with creating an impartial venue for meaningful and reasoned discussion. Both affect site quality, and each is key to your success.

[thelakelander]

I agree.  Over the years we've been able to combine onstreet civic activity and participation with a website featuring influential front page content with an impartial discussion board to be a factor in improving this city's quality of life.  That really can't be denied. 

[Jumpinjack]

Yesterday in the endless rain and gloom, I agreed with Forbes - Miserable! Miserable!
Today, the sun's out. Not so bad.

[Wacca Pilatka]

This kind of crap is why everyone went home from the Superbowl talking about what a hellhole Jacksonville is. I guess that 100k people are all 'miserable' whiners, too? lol

Primarily the people who did that were sportswriters with a vested interest in mocking Jacksonville that goes back for decades.  And I promise you, they weren't looking in depth at anything beyond cab and strip club availability or hotel quality.  They were sitting in Morton's writing home about how the city had no restaurants beyond Waffle House and Applebee's.  Most who came as tourists/fans seemed to enjoy Jacksonville.  

I don't think saying Jacksonville "sucks" or is a "hellhole" is accurate or productive.  (Not that I think that is representative of your posts either, since I enjoy reading them and often learn something.  But "sucks" is a hot-button, dismissive word, so I understand why another reader got upset.)

Not that I disagree as to the city's problems that are regularly discussed here.  I love Jacksonville.  I love its people, beauty, and heritage.  I think it is a wonderful place to visit and I am sure I would enjoy living there, even if I got frustrated with the shortcomings, as I do now.

The great thing about this site is that it has called my attention to the city's problems but not in such a way that it causes my opinion of Jacksonville or its potential to be any less.  I don't think critical thinking about Jacksonville's problems should indicate a negative or defeatist overall view of the city.  I've no doubt the primary forces behind MetroJacksonville love Jacksonville even when they criticize it substantially.

Incidentally, the criteria for this Forbes survey were rather silly.

[Wacca Pilatka]

I agree.  Over the years we've been able to combine onstreet civic activity and participation with a website featuring influential front page content with an impartial discussion board to be a factor in improving this city's quality of life.  That really can't be denied. 

This site is inspiring and encouraging even when pointing out persistent and bleak problems.

I think it's fair to say that selling the positive on Jacksonville doesn't mean one is denying the shortcomings, and that talking about the shortcomings doesn't mean one is saying the city sucks and should leave.

[JagFan07]

If you look at the criteria used, it really is no shock that we made the list.

http://www.forbes.com/2011/02/02/stockton-miami-cleveland-business-washington-miserable-cities-methodology.html

We looked at the 200 largest metropolitan statistical areas in the U.S. The minimum population to be eligible is 249,000. We ranked each area on 10 factors, including unemployment over three years, tax rates (both sales and income), commute times, violent crime and how its pro sports teams have fared over the past three years. We added two housing metrics this year: the change in median home prices over three years, and foreclosure rates in 2010, as compiled by RealtyTrac. We also considered corruption based on convictions of public officials in each region, as tracked by the Public Integrity Section of the U.S. Department of Justice. Lastly, we factored in an index put together by Portland, Ore., researcher Bert Sperling that rates weather in each metro on factors relating to temperature, precipitation and humidity.

Unemployment: shooting from the hip I would have to guess we rate poorly here
Tax Rates: I would assume we rate fairly well here (in fact I am in the camp that we may be too low)
Commute Times: I would assume we rate low here
Violent Crime: While we have improved, we would still rate poorly
Jaguars: Well the last three years haven't been stellar
Change in Median Home Prices: I would again assume we would rate very poorly
Foreclosure rates in 2010: I think Florida as a whole is near the worst
Corruption: I don't recall any major convictions locally. (even though I am sure there should probably be a few)
Weather: I would say we rate very high in this category, but the humidity part could be a downgrade (doesn't bother me)

[simms3]

Stephen, perhaps you have far more experience than me in this, but having just graduated college, most of my college friends found opportunities in Atlanta, Nashville, Richmond, LA, New York, Boston, Chicago, and Houston.  I have heard nothing but raves about each place.  I have visited most of these places (a few extensively) and I could see myself enjoying each place and living in each place.

Sure a few of these places have outrageous traffic which makes you just want to scream (here in Atlanta I find myself screaming at least once a week), and a few of these places are so expensive that $2,000/month gets you a closet, but people in the college educated 22-35 age bracket (and even the middle aged) love and gravitate to these places.  I think Jacksonville should consider trying to be attractive to that demographic.  COL and traffic are secondary factors to quality of life and opportunity/pay/mobility for this demographic.  Jacksonville focuses purely on being a cheap place and it ain't working.  It's making the city miserable for the young and ambitious and keeping the city at a standstill, which is perfect for all of the long-timers and the people who care most about football and church.

Both my parents are either from/worked in larger cities until their 30s, and then they decided to "settle down" in Jacksonville to raise a family.  They loved "the grind" and the pay, etc when they were in New York and Miami.  Atlanta and Dallas do a decent job of combining the fast paced grind that 20s/30s people enjoy and the family life important to middle-aged parents.  Jacksonville needs to learn how to do both, otherwise 70% of the largest demographic group (the Gen Yers) are going to keep the city off of their radar completely.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Jacksonville focuses purely on being a cheap place and it ain't working.  It's making the city miserable for the young and ambitious and keeping the city at a standstill, which is perfect for all of the long-timers and the people who care most about football and church.

It seems to me - thankfully - that this point of argument is becoming at least a sotto voce topic in the mayoral and council races.

[north miami]

Some of the truly "Best" places have learned to keep it to themselves.

[dougskiles]

These kinds of responses are why many people who I respect in Jacksonville do not give Metro Jacksonville the credibility that many here think it has.

I am just passing along some opinions that I have heard from friends.  They aren't necessarily my opinions - although there have been a few cases where I agree.  Obviously I like the forum otherwise I wouldn't spend as much time on it as I do.  I also appreciate the knowledge and experience of those who contribute.  Next time I will keep the criticisms about credibility to myself.  And believe me, I am fully aware of my own credibility issues.

[thelakelander]

I am just passing along some opinions that I have heard from friends.

That's fine.  If there's one thing we've learned while running this site is that by its very nature, you're not going to appeal to or please everyone.  However, making friends is not what we're here for.  We routinely step on people's toes, not passive in expressing our views, don't follow the traditional way of doing things in this town and openly challenge "authority" (when needed) through the use of a media format that many are still trying to understand.  Nothing we do is personal but what I've come to accept is, if Jacksonville is to become a better place, someone in our community has to play this role.  By now, I think any one who has participated here for a while has realized we're willing and happily accept this role, even if it means pissing off a few people.

[ChriswUfGator]

These kinds of responses are why many people who I respect in Jacksonville do not give Metro Jacksonville the credibility that many here think it has.

I am just passing along some opinions that I have heard from friends.  They aren't necessarily my opinions - although there have been a few cases where I agree.  Obviously I like the forum otherwise I wouldn't spend as much time on it as I do.  I also appreciate the knowledge and experience of those who contribute.  Next time I will keep the criticisms about credibility to myself.  And believe me, I am fully aware of my own credibility issues.

Speak what you feel, about credibility or anything else, here. That's what makes it a great forum!

I was just relaying my personal experience that there's this subset of personality types that, whenever you disagree with them, they just love to give you these 'higher than thou' type lectures on your lack of credibility, as if equating credibility with agreeing with them is somehow a valid argument. It isn't. It's just a pretensious form of ad hominem, that tends to come out whenever you disagree with certain personality types. Having read your posts for awhile now, I don't think you're one of them. And if you find your friends trotting that old pile of dung out on you, call them on it. lol

[I-10east]

South Florida cities are disproportionately represented on that list because that was ground-zero for the housing boom and bust. Things will eventually pick up down there as the economy recovers, because they have many other things going on.

Like widespread corruption throughout Miami, and of course South Beach nightlife. Basically the main "miserable strongholds" in the U.S. are South Florida, the Rust Belt, and California; That doesn't shock me. South FL apologists, don't get your panties in a bunch.