Five Drastic Steps To Revive Downtown Jacksonville

[dougskiles]

I have been following this for days.  It's better back-and-forth then a Williams sister's tennis match!  Great arguments and, overall, very well argued by both sides.  Beautiful work, Gentlemen.  I would like to really thank ChriswUfGator and Lake for providing me with more intellectual content and substantive perspective on these issues then I have ever gotten anywhere else.  And just when I was beginning to believe civil public discourse was dead!  As a result, I have really begun to re-examine my support for a new convention facility being built in the immediate future. The real pity we will never see this kind of in-depth exchange between those currently vying for public office.   

All I can say is, be careful.  It is addictive.  Even better than watching House reruns, which is what I used to do before I discovered Metro Jacksonville.  You are right on about this being the only real game in town for true public debate.  More in depth analysis, less name calling than anything else that is even close.  The comments you read on the TU are a complete embarassment to our city.  This stuff is real.

[tufsu1]

I'm really glad I missed this discussion today.....it is ridiculous!

That said, here are a few comments

1. Go to the car show in a few weeks....you'll see they use all the available space in the Prime and several car companies don't come....they also get thousands of attendees each day

2. So the Prime is offering free space if you book hotel rooms....the Hyatt (and other hotels) will pretty much do the same thing....the conference I organized at the Hyatt in 2009 came with over 25,000sf of free space, based on 800 room nights booked and $55,000 in food sales.

3. I recently went to the MLK breakfast....close to 2,000 people attended....the largest ballroom in the Hyatt couldn't handle that.

[thelakelander]

I'm glad Walmart was mentioned.  An average Walmart is about 260,000 square feet of retail or more than twice the size of the Jacksonville Landing, which is mostly empty.  That's probably more retail square footage than all the open retail remaining in downtown today combined.

That's also larger than the amount of space needed for a convention center.  If you added a "whopping" 10k people/day to downtown's deserted streets you would have an environment that would not roll up and disappear after 5pm.  If you could do something that bought in the amount of people a Walmart attracts on a regular basis, you'd look like a frickin genius.

So if that is the candlestick being held up to measure whether we should invest in a public/private partnership to fund an new convention center in the right spot, I'd do it in a heartbeat. That type of foot traffic would fill up the empty bays in the Landing, Bay Street and more.

[ChriswUfGator]

Wow 2,000 people tufsu, thats worth spending a few hundred million...

That's like the economic impact of half of one Walgreens...I'll try not to get too impressed.

Guys, we can slice and dice this however we want, and we'll never be a San Diego or Orlando with two million visitors a year, and I'm sorry but those are the kind of numbers you're talking about to get any kind of reasonable return on the tax dollars invested. And I'm equally sorry to say this, but it'll never happen here in the foreseeable future, because about the last reason why conventions don't come here is the building, they want something to do when they get here not just sit in the middle of a dead downtown with 8 restaurants, not including Winn-Dixie (I added that especially for Tufsu...long story).

We'd be far better off taking the money and using it to get a Sams or a Costco or one of the stores that are popular nowadays to move downtown, than we would be spending a couple hundred million dollars to attract less visitors than a single Walmart or Publix. It's really quite ridiculous.

[thelakelander]

The couple of hundred million for a box is still a fabrication.  You've got to develop something pretty elaborate to come up with such a figure or purposely put a chunk of money in someone's pocket.  Even Indianapolis' convention center expansion project cost $275 million.  However, it got more than 566,000 new square feet of exhibition space in 11 new exhibit halls and more than 70 new meeting rooms.  

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/marion_county/New-Indiana-Convention-Center-set-to-open-

By the way, what is the cost to construct a Walmart Supercenter?  Just wondering.

[ChriswUfGator]

I'm glad Walmart was mentioned.  An average Walmart is about 260,000 square feet of retail or more than twice the size of the Jacksonville Landing, which is mostly empty.  That's probably more retail square footage than all the open retail remaining in downtown today combined.

That's also larger than the amount of space needed for a convention center.  If you added a "whopping" 10k people/day to downtown's deserted streets you would have an environment that would not roll up and disappear after 5pm.  If you could do something that bought in the amount of people a Walmart attracts on a regular basis, you'd look like a frickin genius.

So if that is the candlestick being held up to measure whether we should invest in a public/private partnership to fund an new convention center in the right spot, I'd do it in a heartbeat. That type of foot traffic would fill up the empty bays in the Landing, Bay Street and more.

Well, Lake, then why don't we cut to the chase here, and just spend the money on incentivizing a couple popular retail outlets to move downtown, instead of this retarded convention center? We apparently agree the impact of ACTUAL economic activity outweighs the rosiest predictions for this boondoggle, so why not hand Walmart or Costco or Dillards or one of the popular stores $50mm and say "Move in!"? Then create a tax abatement zone, and use the rest of the money we didn't waste on this silly convention center on establishing transit, incentivizing the private development of the Barnett and Laura Trio, and redeveloping LaVilla ajd Brooklyn, and throw in getting rid of one way streets, parking meters, and asinine zoning and signage restrictions, and watch downtown come back.

Or, we can build an empty convention center that won't do a thing to address the real problems...

[ChriswUfGator]

The couple of hundred million for a box is still a fabrication.  You've got to develop something pretty elaborate to come up with such a figure or purposely put a chunk of money in someone's pocket.  Even Indianapolis' convention center expansion project cost $275 million.  However, it got more than 566,000 new square feet of exhibition space in 11 new exhibit halls and more than 70 new meeting rooms. 

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/marion_county/New-Indiana-Convention-Center-set-to-open-

By the way, what is the cost to construct a Walmart Supercenter?  Just wondering.

Lake, yeah, the courthouse was $400mm and that was after they CUT THE BUDGET. $36.5mm for a seawall and a chainlink fence at the shipyards. I mean, come on, really? The same clowns are going to be doing the same things with this building, you're delusional if you think it'll turn out any differently.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

To jump in the middle of this, Chris makes a valid point.   Think back about 8 years ago when they opened up a 'Outlet Mall' at WGV - that development was still fledgling, but someone put their eggs in the basket and spent a lot of money on the 'strip mall.'

Fast forward to today and we have several thriving businesses, new development and residential nearby that 'clustered' as the project kept expanding.  IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE WHEN IT STARTED!  If you did, how's is typed... incencitised(sic) a major business that would draw customers, then you get an immediate impact.  It won't fill hotels, but it will fill restaurants and bars - ask the people at Blackfin (by far the worst, overpriced chain restaurant I've been to in a while) because people come whethere they mean to or not.  The convention business is a gimmick, albiet one that works, but we really need something that makes our people want to go downtown before we try to attract outsiders.

[thelakelander]

Well, Lake, then why don't we cut to the chase here, and just spend the money on incentivizing a couple popular retail outlets to move downtown, instead of this retarded convention center? We apparently agree the impact of ACTUAL economic activity outweighs the rosiest predictions for this boondoggle, so why not hand Walmart or Costco or Dillards or one of the popular stores $50mm and say "Move in!"?

So you want a Costco in DT?  Why bother.  Just give Ted Pappas a wrecking ball and the money to turn DT into green space so we can see the courthouse from whatever street we enter downtown from.

Then create a tax abatement zone, and use the rest of the money we didn't waste on this silly convention center on establishing transit, incentivizing the private development of the Barnett and Laura Trio, and throw in getting rid of one way streets, parking meters, and asinine zoning and signage restrictions, and watch downtown come back.

Or create a public/private partnership to develop a mixed use center adjacent to the Hyatt.  Use the Hyatt's facility as the meeting and ballrooms and the center of the courthouse site as an exhibition hall.  Sell the Bay Street frontage for private mixed use development that features retail/dining at street level to complement the rest of the district.  Along the riverfront, set the base of the structure back for a public plaza that could play host to outdoor special events and markets.  Then as the area becomes popular, sell the building's air rights for future vertical development.  With this option, you should have additional money for the other things you just suggested as well.

[thelakelander]

Lake, yeah, the courthouse was $400mm and that was after they CUT THE BUDGET. $36.5mm for a seawall and a chainlink fence at the shipyards. I mean, come on, really? The same clowns are going to be doing the same things with this building, you're delusional if you think it'll turn out any differently.

I know you don't have an architectural educational background so I'm going to give you a pass on this one.  The courthouse and an exhibition hall are two different building types.  Comparing the two is like comparing the cost of developing a medical center with one of Sleiman's strip malls.  If you're paying $400mm for less than 200,000sf you're getting raped with no lube.

[ChriswUfGator]

And FWIW, it costs $15mm-$20mm to build a Walmart;

http://www.thetranscript.com/ci_13858568?IADID=Search-www.thetranscript.com-www.thetranscript.com

Not that I'm a big fan of Walmart, but the numbers are going to similarly outweigh the impact of a convention center with all large retail stores, if you don't like Walmart then let's focus on a Target or a Publix or something. A $20mm private investment has ten times the impact of this silly boondoggle.

[ChriswUfGator]

Lake, yeah, the courthouse was $400mm and that was after they CUT THE BUDGET. $36.5mm for a seawall and a chainlink fence at the shipyards. I mean, come on, really? The same clowns are going to be doing the same things with this building, you're delusional if you think it'll turn out any differently.

I know you don't have an architectural educational background so I'm going to give you a pass on this one.  The courthouse and an exhibition hall are two different building types.  Comparing the two is like comparing the cost of developing a medical center with one of Sleiman's strip malls.  If you're paying $400mm for less than 200,000sf you're getting raped with no lube.

Lol, yeah, and how about $36mm for a cement seawall and a chainlink fence at the shipyards?

My point wasn't that these things SHOULD cost this much, only that they always do. It's Jacksonville.

Let's at least be realistic about how this is going to go. We can't build a doghouse for $100mm here...

[thelakelander]

To jump in the middle of this, Chris makes a valid point.   Think back about 8 years ago when they opened up a 'Outlet Mall' at WGV - that development was still fledgling, but someone put their eggs in the basket and spent a lot of money on the 'strip mall.'

Fast forward to today and we have several thriving businesses, new development and residential nearby that 'clustered' as the project kept expanding.  IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE WHEN IT STARTED!  If you did, how's is typed... incencitised(sic) a major business that would draw customers, then you get an immediate impact.  It won't fill hotels, but it will fill restaurants and bars - ask the people at Blackfin (by far the worst, overpriced chain restaurant I've been to in a while) because people come whethere they mean to or not.  The convention business is a gimmick, albiet one that works, but we really need something that makes our people want to go downtown before we try to attract outsiders.

How many events are actually local?  Some of the events put together by forum members here appear to be local oriented.  To develop a sustainable urban core you need foot traffic from a variety of sources.  Gimmick or not, a well placed convention center can contribute to the foot traffic needed to create the environment that attracts locals and visitors.  Although, that's not saying a ton of different uses can't do the exact same thing.

[ChriswUfGator]

Well, Lake, then why don't we cut to the chase here, and just spend the money on incentivizing a couple popular retail outlets to move downtown, instead of this retarded convention center? We apparently agree the impact of ACTUAL economic activity outweighs the rosiest predictions for this boondoggle, so why not hand Walmart or Costco or Dillards or one of the popular stores $50mm and say "Move in!"?

So you want a Costco in DT?  Why bother.  Just give Ted Pappas a wrecking ball and the money to turn DT into green space so we can see the courthouse from whatever street we enter downtown from.

Then create a tax abatement zone, and use the rest of the money we didn't waste on this silly convention center on establishing transit, incentivizing the private development of the Barnett and Laura Trio, and throw in getting rid of one way streets, parking meters, and asinine zoning and signage restrictions, and watch downtown come back.

Or create a public/private partnership to develop a mixed use center adjacent to the Hyatt.  Use the Hyatt's facility as the meeting and ballrooms and the center of the courthouse site as an exhibition hall.  Sell the Bay Street frontage for private mixed use development that features retail/dining at street level to complement the rest of the district.  Along the riverfront, set the base of the structure back for a public plaza that could play host to outdoor special events and markets.  Then as the area becomes popular, sell the building's air rights for future vertical development.  With this option, you should have additional money for the other things you just suggested as well.

It's already a giant greenspace, if you count the weeds growing in the 60-70% of downtown that is nothing but vacant lots! Who said anytning about tearing anytning down? I'd make them go into the old Furchgott's building or something, all the major stores have urban formats. Ted Pappas, Haskell, Diamond, etc., are incidentally the same ones who completely destroyed downtown and are now the same ones still around and pushing for this convention center as the latest disastrous pie-in-the-sky. It's been 40 years, haven't you had enough?

[fieldafm]

The couple of hundred million for a box is still a fabrication.  You've got to develop something pretty elaborate to come up with such a figure or purposely put a chunk of money in someone's pocket.  Even Indianapolis' convention center expansion project cost $275 million.  However, it got more than 566,000 new square feet of exhibition space in 11 new exhibit halls and more than 70 new meeting rooms.  

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/marion_county/New-Indiana-Convention-Center-set-to-open-

By the way, what is the cost to construct a Walmart Supercenter?  Just wondering.

Everbank Field, in its current configuration cost $181 million to build.

A typical Super Walmart in Jax costs around $8-10 million to build.