Five Drastic Steps To Revive Downtown Jacksonville

[fieldafm]

And Field, you seriously have no clue when it comes to this convention center stuff

the Prime Osborn is giving itself away for free

Hmm, I guess the two events I held at the Prime Osborn(one I made money, one I lost money on) somehow clouds my opinion on the matter.  Thank you for clarifying my resume for me.

I have been involved in about 26 events held at convention centers througout the country in my brief life.

[thelakelander]

Field, can you share with us why you chose to host your events at the Prime Osborn as opposed to the Hyatt, Omni or Hampton Inn?

[fieldafm]

Field, can you share with us why you chose to host your events at the Prime Osborn as opposed to the Hyatt, Omni or Hampton Inn?

Size of the exhibition hall.

[ChriswUfGator]

At this point, we have 21 events scheduled at the Prime Osborn that we won't get much economic benefit in DT from because of its complete isolation.  Those 21 events would suggest that some type of market is here, so how can we best benefit and nuture that existing market?

There are 21 things on the calendar. Unfortunately, that's a bit disingenuous when all but 4 or 5 of them are PTA Meetings or Church Luncheons that use the space because it is free. That's kind of silly, since I didn't realize we were taxpayer-subsidizing a multimillion-dollar loss-producing Church Luncheon center, did you?

By including the total number without mentioning that most of these "events" would fit in your average conference room, were you implying that a PTA Meeting or a Church Luncheon is an appropriate reason to maintain a 78,000 square foot facility? I hope not.

In addition, it's generally accepted that the convention center needs to go to make room for a viable compact transportation center.  So the option of nuturing that market in the existing facility means it will be at the expense of having a viable transportation center. 

I agree with the transportation center use. I just don't think that requires us to waste hundreds of millions of dollars building a new convention center. Where's the law that says we can't close this one and make it a rail center, without spending money on a new one?

At the end of the day, your gist is really "build it and they will come" that's what this all boils down to. We both know the demand isn't here for it. And that just doesn't work. You can't go *poof* and magically create business demand and a viable market just by constructing a building. Because that's not how the convention business, or really ANY business for that matter, works. And I think that's where we disagree on this issue.

I think its proven without a doubt that there is a small market here.  That's not even worth debating since there are 21 scheduled events this year.  Instead, we should be focusing on how can we utilize our existing markets/assets in a manner that promotes the vision of a vibrant downtown community.

Source: http://www.jaxevents.com/primeosborn.php

Yes, there is a very small market here. So small, in fact, that it doesn't justify the construction of a multi-hundred-million-dollar convention center. That's the point. Where's the business to justify that investment? 21 events, 16 of which are PTA Meetings and Church Luncheons justify that investment?

1: Do you believe the convention business we have now appropriately supports or utilizes our existing facility?

I think our existing facility is an outdated isolated place that needs to be converted back into a transportation center.  Since a viable transportation center is clearly a larger benefit, that should be priority one.  However, to move forward on that priority we need to address the convention center issue.  Considering the possibility of a public/private partnership and having an available piece of property in hand that is adjacent to our subsidized Hyatt, Bay Street and Landing (all complementing elements the current location lacks), it makes all the sense in the world to look into placing a new facility on that site.

A public/private partnership is not what's planned. Another repeat of a failed publicly-funded convention center is planned. And it will fail, like the previous 3 have, for the same reasons. Regarding the rail Terminal, I agree it should be converted back to that use. I'm just not sure why you appear to be bifurcating and falsely excluding the possibility of converting it back to a rail terminal without the unnecessary requirement of building a new convention center boondoggle being artificially tacked onto the discussion?

2: Do we have the demand to justify the continued existence of the present facility?

Since my number one priority is removing the convention center to make way for a transportation center, I have to ask myself if its worth investing in a new exhibition hall or letting our larger venues move elsewhere?  Given the economic impact of a connected, clustered walkable setting, I believe its worth it to build a new exhibition hall as a part of the mixed use development in the core of the city.  I really would like to see all the people attending these 21 events (even if each event only averaged 500) walking pass the front door of downtown bars, retailers and restaurants to get to that facility.

You didn't answer the question.  Does the current level of business even justify maintaining a convention center at all, let alone building a new one? It's really a "yes" or "no" question, and we've certainly had time to try the experiment haven't we? We've been doing this convention center thing since the 1950s. If this strategy was going to pay off, wouldn't it have worked sometime in the past 60 years?

3: Where is the demand to justify the construction of a larger facility, when we can't fill the one we have?

These three questions are eerily similar and so will my answers. Priority 1 (transportation center) changes the question to keep/better benefit from existing market or abandon it and lose most of those 21 events.  I prefer to develop an affordable solution to keep them, yet relocate them to an environment that better supports and works with our existing assets.

Well, I understand what clustering and complementing uses are, and how they work. But the use also has to complement the general market, or it will still fail. Case in point, I've asked repeatedly a question that is only partially rhetorical, give us some actual examples of situations where this "build it and they will come" routine has ever actually worked in the convention business.

The examples you've referenced, when you look at them, not only do not support that argument but they actually tend to prove the reverse, as was already discussed in this thread with San Diego and Charlotte.

4: Why didn't the former convention center in the original Memorial Coliseum work out? (After all, it was quite large, and connected by expressway to hotel space.)

Don't care.  That has nothing to do with the immediate issue at hand, which is to benefit from connectivity and clustering of existing assets or not.  Btw, "connected to hotel by expressway" is not pedestrian connectivity, which really applies to an urban environment.  Without pedestrian connectivity, you can't have a vibrant urban environment.

So you don't care why the same type of facility has failed in the same city 3 times in the past? Seriously?

Those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. You really kind of summed up my objections to this whole project,. In the planning world, you guys can sit around and say "Don't care" when it comes to analyzing the business realities of why a plan was doomed to fail, because it's all funded with our tax dollars. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to pay for that, and we don't have the luxury of saying "Don't care" when we're carrying the cost of some decision made by people who declared they "Don't care" about why the exact same kind of plan has already failed three times in Jacksonville before.

5: Why didn't the Jacksonville Beach Convention Center work?

(After all, it was also quite large, and near to supporting hotel space.)

Don't care.  That has nothing to do with the immediate issue at hand, which is to benefit from connecivity and clustering of existing assets or not.  This applies not only to the convention center but the transportation center as well.

Again, it's nice you can say "Don't care" and all, but that's really the whole problem here. It has everything to do with the current situation, because the current situation is no different than the prior situations. There is no demand for this structure that you're touting at the same time you're declaring "Don't care" about the business realities and why the structure won't actually succeed.

I won't think it's appropriate to even consider spending this kind of money until I am assured that people have analyzed the reasons why this exact plan has thrice failed in this city, and until we have determined whether or not a convention center is even feasible. Simply saying you don't care to analyze the business realities of the proposal, and don't care about why these proposals have already failed catastrophically not once, not twice, but 3 separate times here (twice in Jacksonville, and once in Jacksonville beach), is ridiculous and demonstrates that this is likely going to fail a fourth time.

6: Why DID the original private model of convention hosting by private hotels work?

Don't care.  That has nothing to do with the immediate issue at hand, which is to benefit from connectivity and clustering of existing assets or not.  If you want to advocate restructuring how the industry works, feel free.  That's not my argument.  What ever you all decide on that, just make sure the publicly or privately funded solution is developed in a compact pedestrian friendly setting that allows the use to create synergy with the surrounding walkable uses.

Unbelievable. You really "Don't care" to analyze why this plan has already failed three times before? And it is directly related to everything we're discussing with the current proposal. Unless you're content with creating another failed empty building downtown? I thought we didn't exactly have any shortage of those already?

7: What happened to our number of convention visitors (originally 200k-250k) when we took that business from the private hotels by building a series of public convention centers?

Don't care.  See last my last three answers.  If you're advocating restructuring the business, see my reply to question 6.

Again, unbelievable that you can say "Don't Care!" to someone asking whether the planners responsible for floating this new proposed convention center have any idea why the previous centers failed, and why we lost a steady and growing stream of convention business in Jacksonville. Until you, and the other proponents of this project, can answer these questions with something other than "Don't care" I think it is plainly obvious to anyone why this is likely to fail. For the 4th time.

8: Is this an abnormal result when government gets into private business?

Don't care.  See last my last four answers.  If you're advocating restructuring the business, see my reply to question 6.

You should care.

But as I said above, I suppose we're going for another failure and everyone seems OK with that. But what do I know, it's only tax dollars, and it's not like we've already tried this and failed 3 times previously. Oh wait.

9: Is there any event at the current convention center that couldn't be hosted by a large private hotel with convention rooms, like the Hyatt?

Yes, the Hyatt is not a large facility. Both the state's Fire-Rescue Convention & Exposition and the State Cheer & Dance Championships left the Prime Osborn due to space constraints.  The Fire-Rescue event needed more than 100,000 square feet to clear exhibits from the lobby area.  Before they bolted, they were using 117,300 sf at the PO.  All of the Hyatt's facilities combined are 110,000sf and the largest column free space is a little over 20k.  In other words, the Hyatt as a premier convention facility in the country's 12th largest city equals peanuts.

The space is column-free with the ancillary rooms (1-8 on the diagram) are combined with the main ballroom. They are only separated by collapsible accordion walls. Diagrams here;

http://jacksonville.hyatt.com/hyatt/images/hotels/jaxrj/capacity.pdf;jsessionid=179FCCB3DE9C6CCF2E966C80968F054D.atg01-prd-atg2

Which means the Hyatt's largest column-free space is still at least 27,984 square feet, with an additional 35,219 square feet available in the immediately surrounding same-level area, for a total space of 63,203 square feet, although separated by load-bearing walls. But the Prime Osborn's 78k isn't column-free, either. To get the Prime Osborn's full 78,500 square feet, you have to similarly combine Exhibit Halls A and B, and the space is not column-free either. This is all clearly shown on the diagrams here;

http://www.visitjacksonville.com/includes/media/docs/convention-center-II.pdf

Considering our current convention business, this space would be MORE than adequate.

Two other events that may outgrow the Prime Osborn in upcoming years include the Car & Truck Show and Spring Home & Patio Show.  Since the Hyatt is a much smaller space, I doubt they could consider shrinking their revenue stream down by squeezing into it as opposed of just going some place large enough to accommodate their needs.

source: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html

I don't think the risk of losing two small events, both of which would probably locate other places within the city, is worth building a new convention center for several hundred million dollars. It's not even close to being worth it. And regarding the two shows, they aren't going anywhere, the surrounding major cities all have their own car/truck shows and home shows. There are no feasible options for relocating those, and the grumbling is simply designed to further this silly goal of taking a fourth crack at the same plan that has already failed thrice, without by your own admission understanding the cause of the prior failures.

As you can see, we're having two different converstations, which makes for an illogical debate.  You're focus appears to be on the merits of the industry as a whole and what needs to be done to allow it to florish, in your opinion.  I'm not talking about convention center industry merits or whether it should be public or private.  Hell, Hyatt could build their own privately funded box for all I care (I wouldn't complain).  I'm talking about whatever you do, it needs to done in a "walkable" (since you through an expressway into one of your replies) environment that contains a compact setting of complementing uses.

We're having the same conversation, I just feel you're bifurcating the debate so that the new convention center is somehow tied to reopening the rail station, and the option of closing the center and reopening the rail station without building a new $400mm boondoggle is being falsely excluded. It really all is the same debate, partitioning it off like that isn't accomplishing much.

So I guess I'm still left wondering how and why you could/would propose taking a 4th crack at building yet another convention center, without first studying the state of that industry and first determining whether there is or would be any market demand to support it? Instead, it seems that you have no good answers to several of the questions I posed, especially when those answers may conflict with your desire to proceed with the construction of the new convention center. Which itself should be a red flag that this is quite likely to become another repeat of what has already failed here three times.

[fieldafm]

A public/private partnership is not what's planned. Another repeat of a failed publicly-funded convention center is planned.

You should wait to hear what the Community Council recommends... a public-private venture is what is being discusssed.

Its all pie in the sky talk right now, but they want to advance the conversation for many of the same reasons that Lake is advocating.

[thelakelander]

Field, can you share with us why you chose to host your events at the Prime Osborn as opposed to the Hyatt, Omni or Hampton Inn?

Size of the exhibition hall.

So, using every nook and cranny of the Hyatt was not an option.  How many people attended your event?  Was it PTA meeting or church luncheon size (I'm assuming this must be in the range of 15 - 30 people)?

[ChriswUfGator]

And Field, you seriously have no clue when it comes to this convention center stuff

the Prime Osborn is giving itself away for free

Hmm, I guess the two events I held at the Prime Osborn(one I made money, one I lost money on) somehow clouds my opinion on the matter.  Thank you for clarifying my resume for me.

I have been involved in about 26 events held at convention centers througout the country in my brief life.

If you'd been involved in events at the Prime Osborn where you had to pay for the space, and you weren't aware that they routinely give that space away for free, then hell I actually feel bad for you since it appears you got a significantly worse deal than most other people who use that facility. And, FWIW, even a worse deal than people on message boards who call up SMG and ask if they have any deals on the convention space.

I guess I was mainly objecting to the implied assumption in some of what you write that just because you weren't personally aware of it, that somehow means it doesn't exist. Why would I make up a rental incentive for meeting space at the Prime Osborn? I mean, seriously, isn't that kind of a random and strange thing to believe someone is making up? The options can't just be either A: Agree with me, or B: You're making it up, since after all it's hardly impossible that I didn't make it up and I don't agree. lol

[ChriswUfGator]

Field, can you share with us why you chose to host your events at the Prime Osborn as opposed to the Hyatt, Omni or Hampton Inn?

Size of the exhibition hall.

So, using every nook and cranny of the Hyatt was not an option.  How many people attended your event?  Was it PTA meeting or church luncheon size (I'm assuming this must be in the range of 15 - 30 people)?

OK, I get your point, but is this handful of events worth building a $400mm convention center?

We aren't San Diego, we don't have ComiCon here bringing people in from across the country, what we actually have are paltry handful of small events, including a car and boat show with a few thousand people that are almost all locals from the surrounding areas. Is that really worth the investment we're discussing?

[ChriswUfGator]

A public/private partnership is not what's planned. Another repeat of a failed publicly-funded convention center is planned.

You should wait to hear what the Community Council recommends... a public-private venture is what is being discusssed.

Its all pie in the sky talk right now, but they want to advance the conversation for many of the same reasons that Lake is advocating.

A true public/private partnership wouldn't bother me nearly as much as what we always wind up with here locally. In case nobody has noticed, Jacksonville's definition of a public/private partnership is normally that the taxpayers get the bill while the private company makes the money. That's not a true public/private partnership. Take the Jaguars for an example of how a public/private partnership normally works around here, we paid to build the stadium, pay to maintain it, helped him pay the startup costs, we continually pay and pay, and then Weaver drops a bomb every couple years about moving somewhere else and we pay some more.

That said, I guess I'll reserve judgment, but my understanding is that this is a deal that is designed to benefit Hyatt and will be managed by SMG and funded by us. If it fails, the taxpayers are the losers. I guess I will wait to see the proposed design.

[thelakelander]

There are 21 things on the calendar. Unfortunately, that's a bit disingenuous when all but 4 or 5 of them are PTA Meetings or Church Luncheons that use the space because it is free. That's kind of silly, since I didn't realize we were taxpayer-subsidizing a multimillion-dollar loss-producing Church Luncheon center, did you?

By including the total number without mentioning that most of these "events" would fit in your average conference room, were you implying that a PTA Meeting or a Church Luncheon is an appropriate reason to maintain a 78,000 square foot facility? I hope not.

Can you provide a source for attendence numbers?  I think this will make or break your argument.

I agree with the transportation center use. I just don't think that requires us to waste hundreds of millions of dollars building a new convention center. Where's the law that says we can't close this one and make it a rail center, without spending money on a new one?

Where's the law that says we can't relocate it?  However, we do agree on costs.  Although there is no reason for this thing to cost hundreds of millions, I still prefer a public/private partnership.

Yes, there is a very small market here. So small, in fact, that it doesn't justify the construction of a multi-hundred-million-dollar convention center. That's the point. Where's the business to justify that investment? 21 events, 16 of which are PTA Meetings and Church Luncheons justify that investment?

Where did you pull the multi-hundred million number from when there is no real project even planned at this point?

A public/private partnership is not what's planned. Another repeat of a failed publicly-funded convention center is planned. And it will fail, like the previous 3 have, for the same reasons. Regarding the rail Terminal, I agree it should be converted back to that use. I'm just not sure why you appear to be bifurcating and falsely excluding the possibility of converting it back to a rail terminal without the unnecessary requirement of building a new convention center boondoggle being artificially tacked onto the discussion?

I'd like to keep the small market and events we have.  You've presented nothing so far that would indicate we can do this without keeping the Prime Osborn in tact at the current location.

You didn't answer the question.  Does the current level of business even justify maintaining a convention center at all, let alone building a new one? It's really a "yes" or "no" question.

Although you've provided me with no data on actual event attendence numbers.....Yes.  

Well, I understand what clustering and complementing uses are, and how they work. But the use also has to complement the general market, or it will still fail. Case in point, I've asked repeatedly a question that is only partially rhetorical, give us some actual examples of situations where this "build it and they will come" routine has ever actually worked in the convention business.

You keep going back to stuff I have not advocated.  We already have a market.  I prefer to better promote and utilize it.  "Build it and they will come" does not apply with my statements.

So you don't care why the same type of facility has failed in the same city 3 times in the past? Seriously?

Those who fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. You really kind of summed up my objections to this whole project,. In the planning world, you guys can sit around and say "Don't care" when it comes to analyzing the business realities of why a plan was doomed to fail, because it's all funded with our tax dollars. Unfortunately, the rest of us have to pay for that, and we don't have the luxury of saying "Don't care" when we're carrying the cost of some decision made by people who declared they "Don't care" about why the exact same kind of plan has already failed three times in Jacksonville before.

Yes, we're doomed to repeat mistakes if we don't learn from them.  What past publicly funded (btw, I'm advocating public/private) convention center in DT has complementing uses clustered adjacent to it in a compact setting?  None.

The space is column-free with the ancillary rooms (1-8 on the diagram) are combined with the main ballroom. They are only separated by collapsible accordion walls. Diagrams here;

http://jacksonville.hyatt.com/hyatt/images/hotels/jaxrj/capacity.pdf;jsessionid=179FCCB3DE9C6CCF2E966C80968F054D.atg01-prd-atg2

Which means the Hyatt's largest column-free space is still at least 27,984 square feet, with an additional 35,219 square feet available in the immediately surrounding same-level area, for a total space of 63,203 square feet, although separated by load-bearing walls. But the Prime Osborn's 78k isn't column-free, either. To get the Prime Osborn's full 78,500 square feet, you have to similarly combine Exhibit Halls A and B, and the space is not column-free either. This is all clearly shown on the diagrams here;

http://www.visitjacksonville.com/includes/media/docs/convention-center-II.pdf

Considering our current convention business, this space would be MORE than adequate.

What is our business?  How much actual space do our current events need?  You've never answered that.  Everything has been an opinion without proof to back it.  Its general accepted that the Hyatt doesn't have adequate exhibition hall space.  Attempting to prove it does is a pretty silly endeavor.

I'm skipping questions 6,7 & 8 because they aren't relevent as far as connectivity and clustering is concerned. You're debating yourself on that stuff.

Two other events that may outgrow the Prime Osborn in upcoming years include the Car & Truck Show and Spring Home & Patio Show.  Since the Hyatt is a much smaller space, I doubt they could consider shrinking their revenue stream down by squeezing into it as opposed of just going some place large enough to accommodate their needs.

source: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html

I don't think the risk of losing two small events, both of which would probably locate other places within the city, is worth building a new convention center for several hundred million dollars. It's not even close to being worth it. And regarding the two shows, they aren't going anywhere, the surrounding major cities all have their own car/truck shows and home shows. There are no feasible options for relocating those, and the grumbling is simply designed to further this silly goal of taking a fourth crack at the same plan that has already failed thrice, without by your own admission understanding the cause of the prior failures.[/quote]

Spreading them out or risking losing them to other parts of the city or elsewhere goes against the whole purpose of promoting connectivity and complementing uses within a compact setting in DT.  We'll just agree to disagree here.

We're having the same conversation, I just feel you're bifurcating the debate so that the new convention center is somehow tied to reopening the rail station, and the option of closing the center and reopening the rail station without building a new $400mm boondoggle is being falsely excluded. It really all is the same debate, partitioning it off like that isn't accomplishing much.

So I guess I'm still left wondering how and why you could/would propose taking a 4th crack at building yet another convention center, without first studying the state of that industry and first determining whether there is or would be any market demand to support it? Instead, it seems that you have no good answers to several of the questions I posed, especially when those answers may conflict with your desire to proceed with the construction of the new convention center. Which itself should be a red flag that this is quite likely to become another repeat of what has already failed here three times.

I've made my points and I'm resting my case.  No where in recent history was connectivity ever a priority, we've seen no event numbers or space requirements to see if the Hyatt could host all current events and the $400 million number is an outright fabrication. If you don't agree with my view that's fine.  We'll both still sleep good tonight.

[fieldafm]

If you'd been involved in events at the Prime Osborn where you had to pay for the space, and you weren't aware that they routinely give that space away for free, then hell I actually feel bad for you since it appears you got a significantly worse deal than most other people who use that facility.

If you can address me in a tone that assumes more candor, I'll be happy to answer your questions.  You make it seem like I'm so kind of idiot that couldn't add my way out of a paper bag.  

Call them up, say you have a boat show that will have 300 attendees and find out yourself how much cash you'll have to pony up.  I can assure you the answer is greater than zero.

As far as your 200 number, say you have a wedding that you want to hold there(been to a few of those there)... you're going to have to guarantee a certain amount for catering(which is high) until you start getting deals on rental rates.

Lake,
My events needed a signficant amount of open square feet.  I have been involved in these types of shows that had attendance anywhere from 1840 paid tickets(at the Prime Osborn incidentally) to 17,168 paid tickets.  
The two PO events had 1840 and 3620 paid attendees respectively.  Roughly 2500 was my break-even number on a scaled back event.

Mobile(who I think is Jax's best comparison/competition) was far more profitable when comparing cost/sq ft

We aren't San Diego, we don't have ComiCon here bringing people in from across the country,

ComiCon was a homegrown event.  Our homegrown events have moved.  You should really consider that in your arguments.  Even though no one is advocating for a convention center of that size, the San Diego convention facilities and the complementing assets clustered around the facility (Gaslamp/Sports District for instance) actually highlight Lake's points quite nicely.  

[ChriswUfGator]

If you'd been involved in events at the Prime Osborn where you had to pay for the space, and you weren't aware that they routinely give that space away for free, then hell I actually feel bad for you since it appears you got a significantly worse deal than most other people who use that facility.

If you can address me in a tone that assumes more candor, I'll be happy to answer your questions.  You make it seem like I'm so kind of idiot that couldn't add my way out of a paper bag.  

Call them up, say you have a boat show that will have 300 attendees and find out yourself how much cash you'll have to pony up.  I can assure you the answer is greater than zero.

As far as your 200 number, say you have a wedding that you want to hold there(been to a few of those there)... you're going to have to guarantee a certain amount for catering(which is high) until you start getting deals on rental rates.

Lake,
My events needed a signficant amount of open square feet.  I have been involved in these types of shows that had attendance anywhere from 1840 paid tickets(at the Prime Osborn incidentally) to 17,168 paid tickets.  
The two PO events had 1840 and 3620 paid attendees respectively.  Roughly 2500 was my break-even number on a scaled back event.

Mobile(who I think is Jax's best comparison/competition) was far more profitable when comparing cost/sq ft

We aren't San Diego, we don't have ComiCon here bringing people in from across the country,

ComiCon was a homegrown event.  Our homegrown events have moved.  You should really consider that in your arguments.  Even though no one is advocating for a convention center of that size, the San Diego convention facilities and the complementing assets clustered around the facility (Gaslamp/Sports District for instance) actually highlight Lake's points quite nicely.  

Lol, take your own advice. You were the one who got all snarky, not me. And you were the one who, as I warned, didn't know what you were talking about when it comes to the Prime Osborn giving its space away. So while I appreciate your lecture on my tone, I'm just fine thanks, no assistance necessary.

[ChriswUfGator]

Can you provide a source for attendence numbers?  I think this will make or break your argument.

Sure thing!

Well, to start with, the largest show is the Jacksonville Home and Patio Show, which runs for 4 days. The show's largest turnout ever in its 40+ year run was a paltry 40k people, most of which I think we all know are locals;

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/downtowntoday.php?dt_date=2010-09-30

So that's a whopping 10k a people a day for 4 days. So, since you've just declared this will make or break my argument, let's compare this to a typical private-sector economic impact, that doesn't require us to spend taxpayer funds, shall we? Ready?

So the largest show Jacksonville has attracts the same number of visitors on a daily basis as A SINGLE WALMART. Just ONE Walmart attracts 10k unique visitors per day;

http://www.amiba.net/pdf/Chicago_walmart_economic_impact_study.pdf

And that's today, tomorrow, the day after, the rest of the month, next month, the month after, etc. So for all of the taxpayer money invested, our convention center's largest show has an economic impact roughly equal to 4 days' worth of visitors at a SINGLE Walmart supercenter.

Now, Lake, again since you claimed this would make or break my argument, let's expound on that. The other shows at the Prime Osborn are smaller, which I can attest to personally having to been to most of them. But for the purposes of argument, I'm going to say our 5 actual events all draw the same number of visitors as the largest event, our tax dollars invested have the same economic impact in terms of unique visitors as one week's average operation of a single WalMart store.

Seems like a great use of $100mm+ in tax dollars to me? And by "great" I of course mean "awful."

And regarding $400mm being a "fabrication" give me a break. We couldn't build a county courthouse for that, why would you think the same clowns doing the same stuff with another building is possibly going to turn out any differently? For christsakes, $36.5 million barely bought us a seawall at the shipyards, lol.

So anyway, according to your statement, I just made my argument, no? (Don't worry, it's clear what your pre-determined position on this 4th attempt at a Convention Boondoggle is, I'm not actually going to hold you to the "make your argument" statement.)

[pwhitford]

I have been following this for days.  It's better back-and-forth then a Williams sister's tennis match!  Great arguments and, overall, very well argued by both sides.  Beautiful work, Gentlemen.  I would like to really thank ChriswUfGator and Lake for providing me with more intellectual content and substantive perspective on these issues then I have ever gotten anywhere else.  And just when I was beginning to believe civil public discourse was dead!  As a result, I have really begun to re-examine my support for a new convention facility being built in the immediate future. The real pity we will never see this kind of in-depth exchange between those currently vying for public office.   

[fieldafm]

And you were the one who, as I warned, didn't know what you were talking about when it comes to the Prime Osborn giving its space away

Call them up... tell them the kind of event you want to run... we'll say a one day boat show with an estimated
500 ticketed attendees that requires ticket windows, exhibition hall A and B, roll-in the day before, food(you wont see a dime of that revenue), room 201 on the mezzanine level(to coordinate your own staff's affairs-you'll have to pay seperately for their staff's services), chairs, booths, security, restricted parking lot access by the loading dock and insurance requirements.  They'll also take a percentage of your gate.  These are all standard things you have to pay for at ANY convention center, INCLUDING our very own.

They don't just unlock the door and say 'come on in.'  If all you did was collect money from both vendors and attendees, then there would be a gun show at the Prime Osborn every weekend.  Shooters wouldn't even exist.  They'd just open for business rent-free at the Prime Osborn every Saturday.