There Are Amtrak Haters Out There

[thelakelander]

So the Denver situation was about a proposed light rail corridor possibly being replaced with DMU service.  The Orlando situation is about DMUs running on an existing freight and proposed commuter rail corridor.  Although they are two totally different animals, none of this really matters because opponents were more concerned about CSX making a profit and the liability issue than rather Colorado Railcars or something else would have been used. 

Btw, the Vermont situation was about Amtrak replacing its Vermont corridor service trains with DMUs to save on annual O&M costs.  Part of the plan also had the service being modified to terminate in Hartford.  They ended up not doing anything and just keeping what they already had in place. 

[FayeforCure]

So the Denver situation was about a proposed light rail corridor possibly being replaced with DMU service.  The Orlando situation is about DMUs running on an existing freight and proposed commuter rail corridor.  Although they are two totally different animals, none of this really matters because opponents were more concerned about CSX making a profit and the liability issue than rather Colorado Railcars or something else would have been used. 
 

The Denver situation involved four commuter corridors including at least one that shared freight trains:

For that reason, RTD will use heavier commuter-rail trains for fastracks corridors it will share with freight carriers, including the line to Denver ...

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12020680

The reason I'm posting the noise and pollution concerns in Colorado associated with DMUs is that those should be Florida concerns too.

[FayeforCure]

Push pull is the most typical but annual O&M costs will be higher than a self propelled vehicle.  However, I will say before throwing the CSX A line in with Denver and Vermont's plans, its best to know what their situations exactly were that led to their decisions.  The amount of freight on and ownership of these lines could make them apples to oranges comparisons.

Another cost consideration:

The EMU has a higher capital cost and the DMU has a higher operation and maintenance cost.

http://teamtoolslive.com/northmetro/forum/index.php?topic=3.0

Also there are other possible FRA compliants DMUs to look at:

With the demise of Colorado Railcar many have wondered what future FRA compliant DMU's might look like.........here's a glance at what might be in our future (provided we can figure out how to fund it)!

Erik

Ansaldo Breda Presentation

Bombardier Presentation

Nippon Sharyo Presentation

Stadler Presentation

Siemens Presentation

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=167905

Good to see these other forums be so open-minded 

[Lunican]

None of those DMU's actually exist.

[FayeforCure]

None of those DMU's actually exist.

Here is one that apparently does:

Nippon Sharyo FRA Compliance
Diesel hydraulic
Nippon Sharyo is likely to bid an FRA‐compliant DMU.
Would meet Tier 4

Anyway, I personally like EMUs

[Lunican]

Nippon Sharyo built the Chicago Metra cars and the Shinkansen. They also built EMU's for Chicago.


Metra Bi level EMU



Metra Bi Level passenger car



Shinkansen "Bullet Train"

[buckethead]

Could one of you be so kind as to explain the acronyms used so often here?

EMU
DMU
FRA
BRT

There are more, but I can't remeber them all. I like to read this thread and monitor discussion, but somtimes find myself lost. These could help. One mention of the term, abreviated thereafter would be awesome!

Thanks.

[jbroadglide]

DMU=A diesel multiple unit or DMU is a multiple unit train consisting of multiple carriages powered by one or more on-board diesel engines

FRA=Federal railroad Administration

BRT= Bus Rapid Transit
Not sure about EMU

[Jason]

EMU= Electric Multiple Unit

[thelakelander]

None of those DMU's actually exist.

Here is one that apparently does:

Nippon Sharyo FRA Compliance
Diesel hydraulic
Nippon Sharyo is likely to bid an FRA‐compliant DMU.
Would meet Tier 4

Anyway, I personally like EMUs

Does this DMU currently exist?  Are these guys headquartered in the US?  As mentioned earlier, a lot of support for Colorado Railcar came from the fact that it was headquartered in America.  Now with them gone, I'm sure other options will be discussed as Sunrail progresses.

[thelakelander]

So the Denver situation was about a proposed light rail corridor possibly being replaced with DMU service.  The Orlando situation is about DMUs running on an existing freight and proposed commuter rail corridor.  Although they are two totally different animals, none of this really matters because opponents were more concerned about CSX making a profit and the liability issue than rather Colorado Railcars or something else would have been used. 
 

The Denver situation involved four commuter corridors including at least one that shared freight trains:

For that reason, RTD will use heavier commuter-rail trains for fastracks corridors it will share with freight carriers, including the line to Denver ...

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12020680

The reason I'm posting the noise and pollution concerns in Colorado associated with DMUs is that those should be Florida concerns too.

The Colorado Railcar was quiter, less polluting and cheaper to operate than the more popular push pull locomotive-hauled trains for commuter rail.  That was another reason, many of its backers supported it.  Nevertheless, its diesel so of course, when compared to light rail, LRT is superior on these issues.  However, this is a commuter rail system we're talking about where a significant amount of freight operations will still take place and cost concerns are more of a pressing issue (cutting down the EMU option).

By the way, I'm not hating on more expensive options like EMUs for commuter rail.  I'm just trying to keep things in perspective and how they relate to the Sunrail situation.

The EMU has a higher capital cost and the DMU has a higher operation and maintenance cost.

How long would it take for annual O&M savings to equal the money saved on DMU capital costs? 20 or 30 years?  If one did not want to wait 20 years to afford an EMU-based system, from scratch, why not operate a significantly cheaper diesel based mode until the local support is there to upgrade, similar to what Caltran is planning to do?

[Ocklawaha]

Typical Light Rail Scene, not your EMU train!


To  be honest the Denver RTD map, shows 9 distinct commuter corridors. The newer lines NORTH have no technology identified for operation. A single line Northwest of downtown and following much of one of those other NORTH lines, is planned to be BRT - Bus Rapid Transit. The Eastside line IS identified as using EMU - Electric Miltie Unit. One central route will be streetcar, and ALL of the others LRT - Light Rail Transit.

Sunrail already has a small DMU fleet, all CRC - Colorado Rail Car. Florida took delivery on Travail where they have been racking up the miles, waiting to go home.

Noise? Pollution? Environmental Damage? Seems to me we are not the ones that are closed minded. Railroads records on all of the above soars above Air Travel, Trucking, and most Bus operations. The Vermont deal didn't crash because of Colorado Rail Car, they actually wanted to go with CRC. This isn't even a Corridor service, rather the two regular long distance Amtrak trains that the State supports. With funds getting short, Vermont did a study on "How to save our trains." Regular Locomotive Hauled passenger trains, were stacked alongside both the CRC and the remanufactured RDC - 1950/60 vintage Rail Diesel Cars. The CRC shut down, new funding for Amtrak, seems to have taken care of the problems. BTW, the RDC wins in the fuel consumption category, the CRC for pulling power and quick sprints.

OCKLAWAHA

[DavidWilliams]

Ocklawaha, I couldn't find it on here but has anyone done a photo doc/history of Baldwin (tiny Duval town 20 miles to our west for the unfamiliar). Rich train history. Mostly freight train history (at least in my memory...I grew up out there in the 70's to early 80's). Some of my older relatives have told me stories that it was a pretty hot commuter train route back in the day (guessing that would have been the 1920's, 30's 40's...maybe into the 50's?). 

[Jaxson]

I took the Sunset Limited to Los Angeles back in 2005.  My round ticket fare ($250) was indeed less expensive than most airfare ($400-$500).  I recall spending less because I spent some of the difference on renting a car when I arrived on the Left Coast.

[thelakelander]

Typical Light Rail Scene, not your EMU train!


To  be honest the Denver RTD map, shows 9 distinct commuter corridors. The newer lines NORTH have no technology identified for operation. A single line Northwest of downtown and following much of one of those other NORTH lines, is planned to be BRT - Bus Rapid Transit. The Eastside line IS identified as using EMU - Electric Miltie Unit. One central route will be streetcar, and ALL of the others LRT - Light Rail Transit.

I'm aware that Denver has commuter rail corridors planned.  My comment was in response to the source Faye posted that attempted to compare LRT with commuter rail.  Its apples and oranges but now that I re-read the link, the source had no idea of what they were taking about.

Anyway, now that Denver has been introduced into the discussion, there is something interesting that they bring to the table.  This EMU commuter rail corridor is supposed to be a public-private partnership.  Similar to the Outer Beltway, a private developer is supposed to come in and pay for the construction and operation of the rail system.  I don't know if it will actually work, but its something to keep a close eye on.