There Are Amtrak Haters Out There

[thelakelander]

I'm familiar with the Colorado Railcar situation.  Personally, I thought it was more of a situation of trying to support what was this country's only rail manufacturer that produced FRA compliant DMUs instead of sending additional money to foreign-based companies.

The Colorado Railcar DMU was targeted towards starter commuter rail operators with smaller passenger volumes desiring to operate shorter trains, often comparable to light rail, and with less extensive maintenance facilities. A DMU car could also pull one unpowered coach car in addition to itself. The DMU also complies with 49CFR229, commonly known as the Crashworthiness Regulation, which dictates construction of locomotives and multiple unit vehicles used on trackage shared with freight trains. This regulation precludes the operation of virtually all of the DMU's competitors, without a special waiver from the Federal Railroad Administration.

Florida Tri-Rail received a grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation to test the DMU vehicles. Contracted in 2003 and completed in 2005, a bi-level DMU demonstrator and matching bi-level coach entered regular revenue service with Tri-Rail in October, 2006. In mid 2007, Tri-Rail acquired three more bi-level DMUs and an additional bi-level non-powered coach. Now in daily revenue service, the two DMU consists have a passenger capability of roughly 560 passengers.

In 2008, Colorado Railcar also delivered three DMUs (and one unpowered coach) to the Tri-County Metropolitan Transportation District of Oregon for use on the Westside Express Service (WES) commuter rail line between Beaverton and Wilsonville, Oregon; an additional bi-level DMU to the South Florida Regional Transportation Authority; and one bi-level DMU to the Alaska Railroad to be used for a new passenger rail service serving the Chugach National Forest. Upon delivery of the DMUs to SFRTA and AKRR, Colorado Railcar ceased operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Railcar

[FayeforCure]

So was it a bait and switch?

In what respect?

There was a "pretend" solicitation of bids in Florida, when as the Siemens guy said: the state "was fixated on this one approach."

Interesting to note that Colorado rejected using the Colorado Railcar DMUs for their four commuter corridors:

Determining what type of commuter trains to run in four FasTracks corridors.

Colorado Railcar is right up U.S. 85 in Fort Lupton. The company has been pushing hard to have RTD adopt its technology. Federal crash safety rules require RTD to use heavier train cars if it shares tracks with freight trains, as would be the case on the four commuter corridors. Colorado Railcar took the lead to design a vehicle compliant with the rule.

So far, only Miami uses them. Portland, Ore., has ordered some. The company also makes passenger cars for tourist railroads such as Alaska Railways.

The cars are called DMU, for diesel multiple units. The electric trains are called EMU, or electric multiple units. The EMU models RTD would use meet the federal regulations.

RTD believes if it decides to place an order for dozens of these cars, other manufacturers would gear up to make them. Colorado Railcar has 150 workers and can put out 20 cars a year, said Arthur Rader, sales and marketing director. It has had talks with Fort Lupton about expanding the the plant to put out 40 a year.

Kemp's advocacy of the diesel plan puts him in a spotlight because his employer, Stewart & Stevenson, supplies diesel engines to Colorado Railcar.

Kemp says the engine that his company sells to Colorado Railcar, the Detroit Diesel Series 60, is being phased out because of tougher emissions standards taking effect in 2011, before RTD would get any new cars. So there's no guarantee his company would be involved down the line.

"I do definitely want it out in the open that I am a diesel person and we are a Detroit Diesel distributor," Kemp said. "But I want to make sure you understand that I don't have a preference as to what engine they use.

The Gold Line was originally to be light rail, but railroads ruled that out because of liability concerns in the event of a collision. Arvada officials say electric commuter rail is the closest to what they were promised and the Gold Line budget already has funding for electrification.

The East Corridor airport line was originally a diesel project but the communities lobbied for electric, at a much higher cost.

"The people on the Gold Line are expecting electrification and we should provide it," said Bruce Daly, a board member from Conifer.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/may/29/diesel-lines-or-electric-rtd-divided/

[thelakelander]

The Siemens alternative would not have worked because their light weight DMU is not FRA compliant.  To run their DMUs, heavier railcars could not run on the tracks at the same time (ex. Austin Metrorail, Ottawa O-Train, New Jersey RiverLine and Oceanside Sprinter systems).  This means, freight trains and Amtrak would not have been allowed to run between Jax and Orlando during Sunrail's daytime operation hours.

[thelakelander]

Btw, I guess you could do electric commuter rail on that corridor, if the catenary were high enough, but it would be significantly higher than the CSX deal people complained about as being too expensive.

[Ocklawaha]

Adtranz, Flexliner, showing its stuff in the Canada, (and Amtrak too).

23.6 feet Lakelander and Faye. That's what would be needed to get the job done. Frankly, I can see why Mica or anyone else was "hooked" on the Colorado Rail Car, at that time. IT WAS THE ONLY AMERICAN DESIGNED AND BUILT DIESEL PASSENGER RAIL VEHICLE MADE! We have simply lost all of our builders, and now, thanks partly to a huge order cancellation by the State of Vermont, CRC has bit the dust.

We now have a couple of foreign builders in the states, mostly geared to LRT/Streetcars. The best hope might be the Danish FLEXLINER as a commuter vehicle, as used by the Israeli State Railroads.
As most of you know, these grants come with a BUY AMERICAN clause, so "Mica" or "FAYE" or anyone else would not have had an alternative.

Faye, when you spend all of your time tossing dirt on Mica, as TUFSU1 said, it really damages your credibility. Had you known that the CRC was the only US built rail car, I'm sure you would have done the same thing. Cheer for the home team. As for Tom Rader? Do you know Tom? I do, and to call him a scam artist is a huge stretch. Tom was a railroad buff that grew his business from cleaning rail cars, to rebuilding passenger cars, to the creation of the DMU of CRC. YES, it was a shoestring budget and when several orders were canceled Tom was left without a hell of a lot of wiggle room. A lot of really fine people went down with Colorado Rail Car, and none of them faults Tom, it is unfair and ignorant to do so.


Some of Colorado Rail Car's Early Work, delivered to Alaska.


The Florida, USDOT, FDOT, TRIRAIL, tests of the CRC.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

I would wonder if there is a possibility that CRC would come to life under new ownership! I mean if you build it they might come! Prove the concept and look to people with vision...........even if they are not in the US of A!

[tufsu1]

the folks in Portland spent some extra $ just to make sure they got their railcars delivered

[Ocklawaha]

I would wonder if there is a possibility that CRC would come to life under new ownership! I mean if you build it they might come! Prove the concept and look to people with vision...........even if they are not in the US of A!

There has been some talk, but JUST talk so far. Meanwhile the rail shop in Canada has very nearly bought up every RDC car ever built and they have started manufacturing them. They also have plans to turnout new cars if things tick upward. Time will tell. BTW, the manufacture is far more advance then "rebuilding" would be. Basically in rebuilding, the entire car is upgraded, mechanic's checked out, new controls etc. Remanfacture on the other had uses NOTHING but the car frame, sides and roof, EVERYTHING else is brand new. 

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

the folks in Portland spent some extra $ just to make sure they got their railcars delivered

tufsu1, so true:

In early 2008 problems at Colorado Railcar were so bad, TriMet took over the company's finances to ensure the completion of its order. Wilson said he notified Florida officials and asked whether they wanted to join the receivership, but the state declined.

TriMet ended up getting all its railcars, but it cost the agency an additional $5.5 million.

TriMet is still getting a lot of flack on this,.......but in FL it's ok to waste tax-payer monies ( especially when a US Congressman has spent 8 years stomping for a particular private company).

Of course everybody knew that Colorado Railcar was the only American company that built DMUs,..........but Colorado chose to go with EMUs, and Vermont canceled its order. So obviously there were other options out there, diesel or not.

[thelakelander]

Push pull is the most typical but annual O&M costs will be higher than a self propelled vehicle.  However, I will say before throwing the CSX A line in with Denver and Vermont's plans, its best to know what their situations exactly were that led to their decisions.  The amount of freight on and ownership of these lines could make them apples to oranges comparisons.

[FayeforCure]

Push pull is the most typical but annual O&M costs will be higher than a self propelled vehicle.  However, I will say before throwing the CSX A line in with Denver and Vermont's plans, its best to know what their situations exactly were that led to their decisions.  The amount of freight on and ownership of these lines could make them apples to oranges comparisons.

Well, this has nothing to do with apples to oranges:

One of the potential bidders was a Korean company, Rotem, that designs crash-worthy DMUs and has a U.S. plant. It was planning to build cars for the Raleigh, N.C., commuter system until federal funding for that project fell through. Its cars, however, have only one level, and Florida officials said they need bilevel cars for the Orlando system.

Seems many arbitrary decisions were made in favor of a predetermined outcome.

I have to agree with a previous comment you made:

I guess you could do electric commuter rail on that corridor, if the catenary were high enough, but it would be significantly higher than the CSX deal people complained about as being too expensive.

Possibly a rework of the CSX deal could have freed up sufficient monies for an environmentally friendlier EMU.

[Lunican]

One of the potential bidders was a Korean company, Rotem, that designs crash-worthy DMUs and has a U.S. plant.

I don't believe the FRA ever designated any Rotem DMU's as compliant with 49CFR229.

[thelakelander]

Well, this has nothing to do with apples to oranges:

One of the potential bidders was a Korean company, Rotem, that designs crash-worthy DMUs and has a U.S. plant. It was planning to build cars for the Raleigh, N.C., commuter system until federal funding for that project fell through. Its cars, however, have only one level, and Florida officials said they need bilevel cars for the Orlando system.

Seems many arbitrary decisions were made in favor of a predetermined outcome.

Rotem is a Korean based company and their product is not FRA compliant.  As I stated earlier, a part of the reason for backing Colorado Railcar was the fact that it was headquartered in America.

I have to agree with a previous comment you made:

I guess you could do electric commuter rail on that corridor, if the catenary were high enough, but it would be significantly higher than the CSX deal people complained about as being too expensive.

Possibly a rework of the CSX deal could have freed up sufficient monies for an environmentally friendlier EMU.

Possibly, but doubt it.  Electrifying 61 miles of track would have sent costs through the roof and service would not have been enough to justify the expense.

[CS Foltz]

Crash compliant DMU's seem to be a viable alternative to electric powered units. Self contained and I assume they use standard track so existing trackage enables them to be used where ever needed. Scheduling is an issue but should be something that can be worked out. CSX has the majority of existing track in this part of the world and would probably rent/lease and long as it does not hold their scheduling up. All of the times that I have had to wait at a crossing in town turnabout is fair play!

[FayeforCure]

Crash compliant DMU's seem to be a viable alternative to electric powered units. Self contained and I assume they use standard track so existing trackage enables them to be used where ever needed. Scheduling is an issue but should be something that can be worked out. CSX has the majority of existing track in this part of the world and would probably rent/lease and long as it does not hold their scheduling up. All of the times that I have had to wait at a crossing in town turnabout is fair play!

Seems they didn't want them in Colorado for a variety of reasons:

Diesel Fastracks? Not so fast!
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Contributed by: Louise Benson on 10/9/2007

Did you vote for FasTracks light rail to all metro areas several years ago, along with the associated taxes? Well, if citizens of the Northwest Corridor (Denver-Boulder-Longmont) don't act fast, we will be getting diesel commuter service along these freight rail lines that virtually no community wants!

It has been less than a month since I attended a so-called public input meeting in Broomfield, during which RTD officials explained that light rail, or electric cars on freight rail tracks, was too expensive, and would not recoup building costs over 30 years. So we get "Diesel Motorized Units" (passenger/engine units the size of a large bus). Talk about bait and switch!

Because of railroad safety regulations, these diesel trains will have to blast their horns at the usual ear-splitting decibels at crossings just like the freight trains. But instead of the usual 4-5 trains per day, there will be an additional 60-75 commuter trains blasting an estimated every 15 minutes! And what about the riders who will need industrial strength hearing protection, just like the engineers?!

Diesel "rumble" and local pollution is said to be about the same as buses, but I don't believe it at least on the noise. We have trains going by about a quarter mile from our house, and sometimes it seems like they're in your backyard, while the RTD buses on the adjacent US 36 are not really audible over the cars. Sound mitigation strategies are very difficult and expensive, especially for the horn noise. Light rail is quiet, clean, and can reduce future dependence on foreign oil with alternative electric generation sources.

The frightening thing is that the RTD Board is rushing this decision on the Northwest Corridor to a final vote before people can muster a protest. And in a preliminary vote last week, all RTD Board members except the Northwest "O" district rep, John Tayer, voted in favor!

What can you do? We must delay this vote for at least 6 months to educate the public! The West Corridor squawked loud enough about their planned diesel, and got their light rail with a 24 year cost recovery.

* Contact all of your elected representatives as well as those running for office

* Contact the RTD Board at www.rtd-denver/TheBoard/index.html

* Attend and speak at the beginning of the RTD Board meeting on Tuesday, Oct. 16, 5:30 pm, at their downtown Denver headquarters at 1600 Blake St., Rooms R, T, and D (really). 2 minutes max. Be there!

UPDATE October 17: Diesel FasTracks final approval for the Northwest Corridor at last night's RTD Board meeting. Officials from Longmont, Boulder, Louisville, Broomfield and Westminster spoke enthusiastically in support, while not acknowledging the 2 to 1 public opposition collected from public meetings and communications, as documented in RTD minutes. Boulder RTD Rep Tayer's amendment to basically do their best to address noise and pollution concerns was accepted. It's a sad day for public participation when our city officials ignore us.

http://denver.yourhub.com/Boulder/Stories/Sound-Off/General-Sound-Off/Story~374938.aspx