Rail in Tampa Bay - TBARTA Style

[Ocklawaha]

Tampa has an easier path to an affordable starter line than we do.  Freight traffic there is insignificant compared to what runs on Jacksonville's lines.  Imo, they should get their feet wet by attempting to purchase or lease the seldom used CSX line that runs through downtown and throwing a DMU on it (before attempting to raise taxes).  While it won't immediately get you to the airport or USF (make this a phase II), it would connect Tampa's major urban core destinations (Ybor, DT, Univ. of Tampa, Hyde Park, SoHo, etc.).  The same could be done with the seldom used CSX line between DT St. Pete and Clearwater.

This is the major reason why we need to be knocking on the door of CSX to buy the "S" line from downtown to Yulee. We also need to secure and quit building bike trails on the parts of the abandoned "S" line that we already own.

Lake, Stephen, Tampa may be a different animal, but Amtrak DID go from Tampa - Clearwater - St. Petersburg for several years. So it was an Amtrak corridor that Amtrak gave up for being too circuitous. It took the train a couple of hours to round the bay and make all of the stops they had. When they cut if off, they replaced it with Amtrak Charter Buses beyond Tampa. From a pure passenger standpoint, probably a big mistake, but like the Ocala route, I didn't see Florida protesting. If I'm on a train for 18 hours from New York to St. Pete, those last two hours don't mean a thing to me. Just pull into the station on the advertised. Transferring to a bus is a trip bumming hassle. Like it or not, all of that right-of-way is in CSX hands.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Yet.   Theres nothing to keep tampa from advocating these things though.

No one claimed there was.  An Amtrak corridor between Tampa and Orlando would be better than HSR down I-4, imo.  However, the Amtrak discussion is really apples and oranges when we're talking about connecting rail to Gateway, Westshore, Pinellas County and USF.  You can advocate, but in this case, the Bay Area's existing assets make little sense to present such an argument and it still does not get you around dealing with CSX.

[thelakelander]

I doubt they are making decisions based on what opinionated local bloggers are debating about in this thread.  I'm also sure they know what their options are for building LRT and what their desired routes should be (see attached route images posted on page one of the thread).  That's why they have maps and cost estimates.  Its also why they will not be taking Faye's position and cursing the ground that CSX walks on.

[thelakelander]

I don't understand where you're coming from.  We never said screw CSX, Sunrail, build LRT to Orange Park or commuter rail to Miami.  You seem to be just as confused as she is on some of these points.

[thelakelander]

No.  no one has ever said screw csx.   Not even in these threads.

And if a line makes sense it makes sense. Whether its a line to the beaches or a line to Orange Park.

What doesnt make sense is devalidating support for lines that you know should be built out of a fear of losing a priority list.

Remember LRT can't travel on tracks with regular rail and we already have great infrastructure in place connecting these two points.  So, LRT between OP and DT does not make sense. Its financially irresponsible.  This is why we have been strong advocates of commuter rail between OP and DT on the CSX "A" line. 

There is a start point, naturally, but that start point doesnt devalidate the end points.

In fact its the other way around:  The end points validate the start points.

No one in Jacksonville has any reason to be for a downtown only transit system that doesnt live in those neighborhoods.

No doubt.  So how do we keep the Mayor from stealing local transit money?  This should be priority #1.

But we do have in our common interests a system that serves the whole city.

And that is our challenge.  How to go about creating transit in a scalable, prioritized way.

Yes, this is what we have been pitching to the community and JTA in the form of streetcars, Amtrak, support for Sunrail and better skyway integration. 

Faye, if she were by some miracle elected, would be the person who could lead support for the lines that run through her district.   Apparently an orange Park line would be in that district.  She would not be the person who would advocate for the S line, as it wouldnt run through her district at all, obviously.

I'm not even going here...lol.  I'm not about to get into an election stump speech debate.

Presumably this line of reasoning will eventually be read by other candidates as well.

Instead of a political discussion about why Mica is awesome, maybe it would be good to talk about how that district could benefit from cooperating with Jacksonville, instead of letting Ock's admiration of Mica and dislike of Faye's campaign lead the discussion?

Faye is the one obsessed with Mica.  We can talk about how the districts can benefit from one another without worrying about the color of Mica's boxers.

I agree with your unspoken point.  We should stay focused on our own first steps:  getting transit built.

But if you don't keep the larger picture always in mind, you end up with STJR's $kyhighway.

Thanks, I have the larger picture in mind.  I'm trying to keep a couple of us from getting caught up on little things that don't mean a hill a beans on our end.  We need to keep our focus.

[FayeforCure]

Faye...where did Lake admit to owning CSX stock?

I'm sorry to be a disappointment to you all but I do not own stock in CSX.  I just believe its better to negotiate with them (than giving them the middle finger), if the plans are to possibly use their property for mass transit.

Nobody is giving CSX the middle finger, but we need to be cognisant of the fact that they have a virtual monopoly and that "negotiating" with them is more of a one-sided tax-payer on the hook situation, that likely leads to undesirable results if we negotiate from the concept of Sunrail at all cost.

It might be that Tampa would like to invest in LRT, because of routing and because of a more visionary approach. Yes, probably more expensive, but definitely an investment in the latest in environmentally sound transportation.

It would seem to me that you want to avoid LRT altogether or to add it at a later stage.

There are many public transportation advocates who advocate starting with LRT, because it is state of the art.

light rail is starting to roll, and commuter-rail creativity is percolating. That is what it takes to keep the region moving ahead.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2009329157_lance12.html

I may know less about local technicalities than you do, but I support the choice of starting with LRT, the way Orlando initially wanted to start with LRT. I'm sure Tampa is aware of their CSX option. They may just not want to go there.

[FayeforCure]

I was actually the one that was at the rail conference with the high speed rail from tampa to orlando contingency there.

It was actually just me and Ock.

The whole set up seemed corrupt to me, as the primary people who spoke in the groups were all contractors, so maybe thats coloring discussion a bit.

Adam Hollingsworth gave the same advice about CSX to our board that you are giving, and he used to be an executive with the company.  They really don't have any incentive to play ball with the municipal transit systems, as indeed why should they?

Amtrak doesnt have to negotiate in the way that a thousand other little municpalities would have to.

That is, if its backed by the feds and kept strong.

Yeah, that's the strength of doing things through Amtrak.

[thelakelander]

Faye...where did Lake admit to owning CSX stock?

I'm sorry to be a disappointment to you all but I do not own stock in CSX.  I just believe its better to negotiate with them (than giving them the middle finger), if the plans are to possibly use their property for mass transit.

Nobody is giving CSX the middle finger, but we need to be cognisant of the fact that they have a virtual monopoly and that "negotiating" with them is more of a one-sided tax-payer on the hook situation, that likely leads to undesirable results if we negotiate from the concept of Sunrail at all cost.

It might be that Tampa would like to invest in LRT, because of routing and because of a more visionary approach. Yes, probably more expensive, but definitely an investment in the latest in environmentally sound transportation.

It would seem to me that you want to avoid LRT altogether or to add it at a later stage.

There are many public transportation advocates who advocate starting with LRT, because it is state of the art.

You should spend a little time in our transit archive section or join us at Hola again.  Our opinions on rail transit may be closer than you think right now.

i'll say that all forms of rail are state of the art, imo.  I don't believe LRT is anymore sleek than streetcars, Amtrak, heavy rail or commuter rail.  They all have their place and environments where they work best.  The best mass transit systems typically have a well integrated mix so it should not come down to an either or situation.  

While not LRT, the Oceanside Sprinter and Austin Metrorail are impressive forms of rail for communities trying to get in the rail game without immediately raising taxes to pay for something that could cost billions.  They have been designed to provide service with headways commonly associated with LRT. Also, have you followed up on how the San Diego Trolley or St. Louis LRT systems began?  Both are good examples of not breaking the bank to get LRT started.  

In any event, you have to design what best fits your community.  Like HSR, I'm not against LRT.  However, knowing the area I come from, asking the fiscally conservative taxpayers to approve a bloated cost estimate for any type of rail project could kill the plan before it starts.  No true rail advocate wants to see that happen.  So if there is a way to get it off the ground without the "bells and whistles",  it should be looked into.

As for CSX, i'm glad you recognize that this private company has to be brought to the table, for rail plans that have been designed to use their ROW.  With that said, we have to keep in mind that they are a private company in the business of moving freight.   If we bring something that negatively impacts their core business (passenger rail), they will have to be compensated for it.  Also, keep in mind that without CSX a significant portion of our statewide industrial network would dry up.  This is one of the reasons I did not have a problem with the state paying CSX to upgrade the S-Line.  Better rail access to the central part of the state would create more opportunities for additional industrial related businesses and the shift in freight from the "A" line would open up commuter and intercity rail opportunities in and between Jacksonville and Orlando.

I may know less about local technicalities than you do, but I support the choice of starting with LRT, the way Orlando initially wanted to start with LRT. I'm sure Tampa is aware of their CSX option. They may just not want to go there.

This is what I've been trying to say for a while in this thread.  A significant portion of Tampa's LRT plans use CSX ROW.  For example the line from USF to Downtown to Hyde Park is totally on CSX track/ROW.  They have no choice but to work with CSX, regardless of whether they want to do LRT, commuter rail or both.  However, this should not be seen as a negative for them.  The line through DT recieves little freight traffic.  They could probably get their hands on it without a huge fuss.  The same goes for the line between St. Petersburg and Clearwater.  If it were not for the St. Pete Times plant, there would be no use for that thing at all.

[thelakelander]

I was actually the one that was at the rail conference with the high speed rail from tampa to orlando contingency there.

It was actually just me and Ock.

The whole set up seemed corrupt to me, as the primary people who spoke in the groups were all contractors, so maybe thats coloring discussion a bit.

Adam Hollingsworth gave the same advice about CSX to our board that you are giving, and he used to be an executive with the company.  They really don't have any incentive to play ball with the municipal transit systems, as indeed why should they?

Amtrak doesnt have to negotiate in the way that a thousand other little municpalities would have to.

That is, if its backed by the feds and kept strong.

Yeah, that's the strength of doing things through Amtrak.

Question:  I'm going to try and give you and Stephen the benefit of doubt by asking to shed further light on this.  In this thread we're primarily talking about Tampa's LRT plan.  I would like to know, in your opinion, how can working through Amtrak help Tampa establish LRT? 

[thelakelander]

I think you know my answer.  After all, I am the one who wrote the MJ resolution supporting Amtrak that was posted on the front page of this site and sent to all council members.

Now its your turn.  You may know something I'm currently overlooking. How can working with Amtrak help Tampa establish LRT?

[FayeforCure]

Our opinions on rail transit may be closer than you think right now.

In any event, you have to design what best fits your community.  Like HSR, I'm not against LRT.  However, knowing the area I come from, asking the fiscally conservative taxpayers to approve a bloated cost estimate for any type of rail project could kill the plan before it starts.  No true rail advocate wants to see that happen.  So if there is a way to get it off the ground without the "bells and whistles",  it should be looked into.

As for CSX, i'm glad you recognize that this private company has to be brought to the table, for rail plans that have been designed to use their ROW.  

Fair enough,......basically LRT and HSR are cost prohibitive in Florida according to that view. That leaves only CSX and Amtrak to work with.

Yet a well-placed LRT almost made it in 1999 in Orlando, just one vote short. A major problem that the central florida rail project ran into was that many Democrats couldn't even support it in today's recession. It also seemed to be a sweetheart deal for CSX.

With the availability of federal HSR funding, there is no reason to take a "conservative" approach. HRT is definitely considered state of the art. It might actually open up some minds for other passenger rail in FL.

If you start with something visionary like Eisenhower did, you help move people's perception of what's possible and needed.

We need a jobs program in FL, we might as well get a BIG jobs program courtesy of the federal gov. Why let most of the jobs go elsewhere AGAIN.

[thelakelander]

Fair enough,......basically LRT and HSR are cost prohibitive in Florida according to that view. That leaves only CSX and Amtrak to work with.

Its deeper than this.  You have to evaluate each project on an individual basis.

1. HSR currently does not set up well to serve every day Central Florida commuters.  There needs to be more stops that are closer to existing and future centers of population growth.  I-4 may have the ROW necessary, but there will be no growth in the Green Swamp.  We need to find a way to tap into those who commute to and from places like Brandon, Lakeland, Plant City, Auburndale, Winter Haven, Haines City, Poinciana, Kissimmee, etc.  However, if you do this, then it won't be "HSR".  But if skips over the places most commuters are going and coming from, they'll still be driving on I-4.

2. There are several LRT/streetcar plans across the state.  You have to look at each one on an individual basis.  Some seem solid, some seem like a stretch.  In Tampa's case, they need their conservative taxpayer base to approve to raise their taxes to pay for the plan.  Tossing around quotes like $5.2 billion could sink it before it happens.  That's something neither of us don't want to see.

Yet a well-placed LRT almost made it in 1999 in Orlando, just one vote short.

yes, that one sucked.  Instead of LRT today in Orlando, Charlotte is reaping the benefits.

A major problem that the central florida rail project ran into was that many Democrats couldn't even support it in today's recession. It also seemed to be a sweetheart deal for CSX.

My problem with this is, the opposition did not bring a viable alternative solution to the table.  So in the end we end up with nothing and Charlotte stands in line to get some more federal rail dollars that should have been spent right here in Florida. 

With the availability of federal HSR funding, there is no reason to take a "conservative" approach. HRT is definitely considered state of the art. It might actually open up some minds for other passenger rail in FL.

Its a risk because of the poor layout and expense.  If it fails it could kill all other forms of rail transit in this anti rail state for decades.  That's a risk I rather not take.  Nevertheless, the HSR funding can also fund other projects in this state (ex. Sunrail and Amtrak/FEC).  I'm not saying we should not go after the money.  We should just make sure our plan actually benefits the communities its supposed to serve.

If you start with something visionary like Eisenhower did, you help move people's perception of what's possible and needed.

We need a jobs program in FL, we might as well get a BIG jobs program courtesy of the federal gov. Why let most of the jobs go elsewhere AGAIN.

The skyway was also considered to be "visionary" and look where that has gotten us.  Its effectively soured any talk of rail based improvements in Jacksonville for decades.  The true definition of vision is making sure every project planned is developed in a way that provides as much benefit to the communities it is supposed to serve as possible.  Its more about designing to your environment than what type of technology is seen as sleek and visionary by transit novices.

[FayeforCure]

The skyway was also considered to be "visionary" and look where that has gotten us.  Its effectively soured any talk of rail based improvements in Jacksonville for decades.  The true definition of vision is making sure every project planned is developed in a way that provides as much benefit to the communities it is supposed to serve as possible.  Its more about designing to your environment than what type of technology is seen as sleek and visionary by transit novices.

The skyway was over the top visionary for Jax. HRT is much more run of the mill visionary.

[Ocklawaha]

The whole problem of HSR as planned in Florida right now is the I-4 line, and the plan to start at a very out of downtown Airport.

A look at the map shows how the old Atlantic Coast Line, "A" line, of CSX, runs right through the middle of the core cities of Central Florida. Starting with Deland, Orange City, Sanford, Lake Mary, etc... All the way to Tampa. (The St.Pete extension was former Seaboard Air Line track). West of Orlando, the line, and the string of cities drop quite south of I-4. Kissimmee, Haines City, etc. are all well south of I-4. So even if the HSR was successful, it would tend to PULL development toward I-4, creating another area of endless and mindless sprawl.

Also consider that the visionary form of HSR might not happen at all. As the industry sinks it's teeth into the Billions promised, they are realizing that this amount is not going to do much. What it will do, and what is being promoted on the inside, is "Higher Speed Rail," with many projects such as rebuilding cut-off's that have been abandoned since the railroads dumped passenger trains in 1971.

The Virginia-Carolina, former Richmond - Raleigh, Seaboard mainline is one of those projects, and I'll go out on a limb here and tell everyone IT WILL HAPPEN, AND SOON!  I don't have the facts in front of me but it's a good 70 miles or so. They will rebuild with HSR in mind, top grade track and signals and target something in the area of 90-110 mph.

Now, move that to Florida and what could we do? How about Auburndale - Wildwood, the Central Florida Miami cut-off? This would completely relieve the fuss about Lakeland getting bombed with freight trains heading south from Ocala to Winter Haven. Plus it gives FDOT and Amtrak back one of the historic core fast tracks in the state. CSX knew what it was doing when it pulled that plug. I believe I spent some time with Stephen explaining how THAT process worked. Twisted logic.

Gainesville could be reconnected to a through railroad route. Florida could reopen the west coast mainline from Tampa up to Dunnellon. Track restoration to Naples and Venice? Maybe. If we had any vision, look at our own "S" line north of town. Future HSR? Maybe.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

In the HSR Orlando to Tampa (maybe Miami) vs Amtrak 5 corridor state wide higher speed rail for less money debate. I choose greed. I want to use the system from Jax and go all over the state on it. I do not want to drive to Orlando then take the train.