JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[braeburn]

A Riverside extension would certainly make for a very picturesque Saturday. The proposed stop is close enough to the Riverside Arts Market, the Cummer Museum, 5 Points, Riverside Square, Memorial Park... the list goes on and on. Lunches, shopping, dinners, picnics, galleries, market venues... would be nice! 

[CS Foltz]

I concur.....what could be ain't what is....Should have been better planned from the beginning or atleast planned with expansion in mind rather than what came to be! Someone had no vision and no plan!

[thelakelander]

Again, without doing anything other than better integrating it with the bus system today, would that reduce the amount of money we spend on it and our buses now?  Would downtown be a better place without nearly ever single bus in the city looping down half of its main streets?  Regardless of how we feel about skyway, its a $184 million investment currently in place right now.  Why not better integrate it with the bus system if it saves money and increases bus times?  In the meantime, the community can still debate what the ultimate future should be.

[CS Foltz]

I agree....it should be integrated with the bus system but don't see how that option is viable. A plan to rework bus scheduling is in the works,as I understand it, but not sure how that will increase useage. Last thing I saw was approx 20K riders and believe that was a yearly figure. So it is under used, why? Not enough stops, irregular scheduling or just plane not used?

[JeffreyS]

Another simple skyway improvement would have the north- cars run from FSCJ to Kings Ave without changing cars at central station you would only change if you where going to Jacksonville Terminal (Prime Osborn). If we ever expand down Bay street to the stadium an east west express line could be used and you would only need to change cars if you where changing direction.  Now unless you are getting off at central station you will be changing cars there. It just adds five to ten minutes to each trip that could be spared for most.

[CS Foltz]

Jeffrey.....sounds good to me! Atleast something can come out of a bad design and one can hope things will get better!

[thelakelander]

I agree....it should be integrated with the bus system but don't see how that option is viable.

If DT bus users have to use the skyway or PCTs to get around the DT, this allows the majority of bus lines to get in and get out of downtown quickly.  In some cases, this could trim as much as 20 minutes off the ride time of a person who does not have DT as their final destination.  Wide scale, this could reduce typical bus headways all across town and speed up the time it takes to get from point A to point B.  Better headways and more time efficient routes are two of many things that are needed to draw more riders to our mass transit system.

A plan to rework bus scheduling is in the works,as I understand it, but not sure how that will increase useage. Last thing I saw was approx 20K riders and believe that was a yearly figure. So it is under used, why? Not enough stops, irregular scheduling or just plane not used?

Its a bad combination of a lot of things.  A few include:

- poor headways
- confusion of where individual buses actually go (due to lack of informational signage at stops and weird bus route identification system
- a lack of bus shelters in a climate not conductive to standing on a busy street with no protection
- nationwide bus stigma
- antiquated fare collection system

There are more issues out there, these are just the tip of the iceberg.

[stjr]

Speaking of headways, I have yet to see any answer to this question I have asked several times:  What is the typical "best" headway of the $ky-high-way? 5 -10-20 -30 minutes?  Seems that would be a major factor in its value to be expanded.  Also, how many "trains" can run back and forth on the same $ky-high-way route?

[thelakelander]

According to JTA's website, the skyway is supposed to have 3 minute headways during peak hours and 6 minutes off peak.  I doubt it runs that frequent, but if so, better integration should not be a problem.

Skyway
Gliding above the St. Johns River and downtown city streets, the JTA Skyway serves points of interest on both sides of the river. The Skyway provides riders with easy access to their workplace, hotels, restaurants and entertainment venues.

The JTA Skyway is an automated system offering low cost and convenient service to downtown patrons and employees. The trains depart the stations approximately every three minutes during peak periods and about every six minutes all other times.

The Skyway Makes Connections.
The Skyway system is interconnected with JTA's free Trolley service, providing riders with expanded mobility in the downtown area. In addition, the Skyway stations at Convention Center, Jefferson Street and Kings Avenue offer inexpensive Park-N-Ride facilities for commuters and visitors. For a monthly pass or information on our metered parking, call (904) 630-3110.

Hours
Monday â€" Friday â€" 6 a.m. â€" 9 p.m.
Saturday â€" Noon â€" 7 p.m.
Sunday â€" Special Event Service only

Train Frequency
Peak Hours
6-9 a.m. and 4-6:30 p.m. - train arrives every 3 minutes
Off Peak Hours
Trains arrive every 3-6 minutes
(Exception: train from Rosa Parks Transit Station to San Marco runs every six minutes)

http://www.jtafla.com/Schedules/showPage.aspx?Sel=15

[DavidWilliams]

....and what is the capability to go in opposite directions at the same time (I have never climbed up and looked at the tracks)? I am getting a bath by fire on all forms of rail on this site. 

[thelakelander]

Well, the skyway is double tracked.  Going opposite directions at the same time should not be a problem.

[Ocklawaha]

David, since the current configuration is all double track, the Skyway is completely bidirectional. The worst part of the current system is allowing a constant switch movement between the Jacksonville Terminal, Jefferson St, stations, and the Southbank line. This is causing one or the other train to (RAILROAD 101) "HOLD OUT", from Central Station, sometimes the delay is several minutes.

Lake, you are right, I would also toss in a few non-transit but supportive factors that could be added at little or no cost to the city. Micro-shops, restaurants, coffee bars, hot dogs, donuts, etc.. In Medellin, Colombia, our Central Station is darn near the size of the Landing and the shops are very much alive. Nearly every stop has a Dunkin Donuts, and these along with traditional Colombian finger foods, are about the size of a typical garden shed! Hey, it works!

stjr, You haven't seen other cities putting up Skyways, perhaps because you haven't looked... Las Vegas, Indy, Seattle (rebuilding), and many more on the drawing boards. Internationally there is no problem using monorail in downtown area's with Sydney, AU. having a wonderful and successful system. They are all over Japan and China, Tialand, and Tiawan. Check out http://www.monorails.org/ (I put a Jacksonville Skyway "family album" in the photo section).

As for the numbers, JTA Carry's more the 10,000,000 passengers per year, on about 60 routes +/-.  Miami's metro mover Carry's about as many people in a month as our Skyway does in a year. Yet our system has a superior and far more expandable technology behind it. Single beam monorail does NOT have to be in an elevated bath tub with side walls. The new Quom, Iran, monorail, is top of the line technology and the third such metro built in that country in almost as many years. Using products VERY FAMILIAR to JACKSONVILLE, their cost is $20 Million USD/Per KM

OCKLAWAHA

[DavidWilliams]

Thanks Ok and Lake. As I mentioned earlier, I am slowly learning the technical side of transit. Logistics will be the second course. 

[thelakelander]

Speaking of people movers, Phoenix and Miami are building them to connect with their new light rail and intermodal centers.

Indianapolis Clarion Health Peoplemover

SDI's proprietary UniTrakâ,,¢ People Mover is the culmination of two decades of practical, hands-on experience in designing, building and operating transit projects throughout the U.S. This fully-automated, state-of-the-art transit system was most recently installed above 1-1/2 miles of busy city streets in downtown Indianapolis in a widely acclaimed public-private venture initiated by Clarian Health Partners, Inc. and the City of Indianapolis. Performing as turnkey design-build contractor, SDI fast-tracked the highly complex, $40 million project from concept to completion in just two years. For complete documentation on the Clarian Health project,

http://www.schwagerdavis.com/pdf/clarian.pdf

That's $26.7 million per mile double tracked.  The skyway was $73.6 million per mile double tracked.  JTA's original BRT plan cost more per mile than Indy's people mover.  Tell me who's getting the short end of the stick?

[stjr]

For the transportation industry, it is a one-of-a-kind achievement: the nation’s first privately-funded elevated transit system to operate over public right-of-way.

For its owner, Clarian Health Partners, it is an innovative solution to the problem of moving physicians, medical staff and equipment among three hospitals without the personal inconvenience and loss of productivity associated with urban traffic congestion.

I've seen this before here.  This appears to be a special purpose project a la Disney's monorail.  If private investors are the only ones who can make these things work, then let's auction off the $ky-high-way and be done with it.  Best wishes to the next owner.  Maybe they can make it work but the taxpayers will be off the hook.  Who says you can't make money on mass transit?  Maybe someone else can.

I really don't think we are fully comparing apples to apples here, to be frank.

P.S. I wonder if the stated $40 million cost in the Clarion project includes ALL the costs including land acquisition, etc. or if this is just what went through the main contractor.  And, what and how much equipment and capacity came with that?[/b]