JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[avonjax]

I love the skyway just wish it traveled out of downtown....
I pray they extend it...
that's my dream

[CS Foltz]

Either extend it so that it may go somewhere, correct switching problem or shut it down....that's 7 Million dollars to operate something that is under utilized and not very timely. So either take a dump or get off the pot but something even if its wrong. The $kway is a boat anchor and not the rocket intended!

[thelakelander]

Riverplace Station should be back online before the FL/GA game.  It will cost $450,000 to repair.
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-09-01/story/riverplace_skyway_station_should_open_before_halloween

[CS Foltz]

Just one stop? Not sure if thats a good way to go or not.....$kyway needs to make multiple stops along a route that actually goes somewhere rather than short run that it makes now! If it were connecting to the suburbs from where it starts...say a circle route that would be more conducive to riders  using what right now is under used and not even vaugely close to paying for its self....I mean 7 Million dollars a year for something that has 30  Thousand riders a year?

[thelakelander]

If they want to get more use and income out of it, it should be properly integrated with the bus system.  JTA should eliminate the DT bus loops making all riders headed for downtown use the skyway or the PCTs to get in and around the core.  Doing such, would probably cut bus operational costs, increase the skyway's revenue, cut down on bus travel times and make downtown's streets more livable/walkable.

[stjr]

If they want to get more use and income out of it, it should be properly integrated with the bus system.  JTA should eliminate the DT bus loops making all riders headed for downtown use the skyway or the PCTs to get in and around the core.  Doing such, would probably cut bus operational costs, increase the skyway's revenue, cut down on bus travel times and make downtown's streets more livable/walkable.

I find it interesting that this concept of connecting the $ky-high-way to buses, etc. will enhance the $ky-high-way.

Has anyone considered the alternative view that by doing so, the $ky-high-way will kill the buses, street cars, etc. (like a cancer spreading)?

Who is going to want to ride a bus or street car and transfer to the elevated, inconvenient, inflexible, infrequent $ky-high-way to travel an additional 1 to 3 miles and still have to walk umpteen blocks to your destination when a bus or street car could get you much closer with much greater frequency and user friendliness?

I say even less riders than the number of riders we have now.  Do this and we will kill the bus, street car, and any other connecting transit system along with the $ky-high-way!

[thelakelander]

If they want to get more use and income out of it, it should be properly integrated with the bus system.  JTA should eliminate the DT bus loops making all riders headed for downtown use the skyway or the PCTs to get in and around the core.  Doing such, would probably cut bus operational costs, increase the skyway's revenue, cut down on bus travel times and make downtown's streets more livable/walkable.

I find it interesting that this concept of connecting the $ky-high-way to buses, etc. will enhance the $ky-high-way.

Has anyone considered the alternative view that by doing so, the $ky-high-way will kill the buses, street cars, etc. (like a cancer spreading)?

Well let me explain my method of madness.  Imo, the buses taking a 20 minute loop around downtown, being caught at every light and stopping at several corners in the CBD is already killing them.  What good is an express bus from the beach (a 20 minute ride to downtown) if it takes that rider another 25 minutes to get from FCCJ/Rosa Parks to an office building on the Southbank?

see insane current downtown bus routes here: http://www.jtafla.com/pdf/RouteMap_Jan09pdf.pdf

If you limit the amount of stops most make in downtown (most bus rider's destination points aren't downtown), it would actually make them more user friendly and cut down on operational costs.  To do this, you have to integrate the system with other modes of transit.  Those other modes could be the skyway, PCTs, streetcars or a combination of all of them.  However, I will say this won't work without having a decent transfer system in place.

Who is going to want to ride a bus or street car and transfer to the elevated, inconvenient, inflexible, infrequent $ky-high-way to travel an additional 1 to 3 miles and still have to walk umpteen blocks to your destination when a bus or street car could get you much closer with much greater frequency and user friendliness?

The closest comparison would be Metrorail and Metromover in Miami.  Metrorail runs from Hialeah to Dadeland and carried 58,800 passengers a weekday in 2007.  This heavy rail system makes two stops in downtown Miami.  The main stop has a direct connection to Metromover, the Skyway's sibling.  In 2007, weekday ridership on Metromover averaged 29,500.  That's a far cry from the Skyway's 1,700.  If you're ever down there during the NBA season, make it a point to watch the number of people who have no problem coming in from the suburbs and transferring to Metromover to get the the Heat's arena.
http://www.miami-dade.gov/transit/library/pdfs/rtr/2007-07_Ridership_Technical_Report.pdf

Miami rail system map


With any major mass transit system, transfers are a must.  As long as the frequencies between the modes are coordinated (and fare free), transferring is not the problem many make it out to be.

[Doctor_K]

Lake:
i.e. Commuter rail from points South and North feeding into the Union Terminal, thus spilling out into the Skyway (with extensions to Riverside and the Stadium), right? 

With overlap/transfer stations at Kings Ave or Jackson Square for the South leg and (insert place TBD) for the North leg?  Or just a transfer at Union and Jackson Square?  Or something similar?

[thelakelander]

Commuter rail, I could see feeding suburban riders into Union Terminal (commuter rail, Amtrak, skyway, PCT, streetcar, etc.) with a second commuter rail/skyway connection in the Southbank/San Marco area.  Atlantic Blvd would be a great spot, imo.

[stjr]

In 2007, weekday ridership on Metromover averaged 29,500.  That's a far cry from the Skyway's 1,700.

OK, Lake, let's use your example here.  Metromover numbers are based on a CONNECTED and FULLY EXPANDED system in a MUCH LARGER city and it still moves less than 30,000 riders a day.  That is the SAME or LESS than the approximate original estimates for the EXISTING $ky-high-way.  So, if that is the upper limit to our aspirations with an EXPANDED $ky-high-way, how could we ever justify said expansion?  This is just not enough traffic, even allowing for some level of acceptable operating losses, to justify millions for expansion versus street car, commuter rail, or additional bus investments.

Sorry, I just don't understand what proponents are hanging their hats on, other than sheer emotion, to promote expansion or maintenance of the $ky-high-way.  It's an enigma to me.

[thelakelander]

Well downtown Miami is not the epicenter of South Florida and Metrorail is only 22 miles in length, so its not really serving most of the +5 million people in South Florida.  Nevertheless, in the last few years, ridership has rapidly risen and these systems do appear to be working with one another.  What's going on with the skyway is a completely different story as ridership continues to fall from poor service and a lack of connectivity with the rest of JTA's mass transit network.

You're focusing on the skyway specifically, but my focus is on creating a workable integrated mass transit system that mixes elements of our existing network (ex. buses, PCTs, Skyway) with new features (Amtrak, Commuter Rail, Streetcar).  I'm not making an argument that the skyway will ever make money (transit doesn't).  All I'm saying is with a little common sense it does not have to be the money pit it currently is. 

So, if that is the upper limit to our aspirations with an EXPANDED $ky-high-way, how could we ever justify said expansion?  This is just not enough traffic, even allowing for some level of acceptable operating losses, to justify millions for expansion versus street car, commuter rail, or additional bus investments.

Good question.  However, before it can be properly answered, a few more things need to be identified.

1. What is the savings on bus operational costs if the DT loops were eliminated?

2. Would those savings cover increased skyway and PCT usage in the short term?

3. If the skyway were expanded, what would be the average cost per mile and how would that compare to other potential options in areas it already serves or comes close to serving?

Without knowing the answers to some of these questions everything is pure speculation on what ever position one takes.

[stjr]

Lake, thanks for your thoughts.  But, with due respect, they are laced with more of the endless "apologies" for the never-enough systems (not the epicenter, only 22 miles, etc.) and "what ifs", just like Jax, while being held up as a model of what "we could be".  That's having your cake and eating it to.  You are entitled, but that won't convince a skeptic like me.

And, as to your questions, I think common sense gives me the grounds to conclude that there is no way the $ky-high-way can effectively substitute for buses and street cars.  If that was the case, $ky-high-ways would be popping up all over the country.  That sure as heck isn't happening.

Study away, but I expect you to come back to my point on the circle soon enough.  I am just trying to save a few million in studies for the taxpayers.

[Ocklawaha]

Finish what we started.


A very RARE image of a streetcar LOUNGE CAR, complete with restroom, observation platform, bar and velvet seats. Give you one guess which large Southern City had these cars... JACKSONVILLE!


A different view of commuter rail. I told you that I took the DMU up to
80MPH.

The entire JTA system averages about 27,000 daily riders with 60 bus routes! Taking the Skyway up to 5,000-10,000 daily would be a realistic goal.

Lakelander you are right about the mix, great mass transit offers a mix of complimentary modes, transfers and services. The Skyway, PLUS, Streetcar, trolley bus (real ones-NOT the PCT trolleys of today), Light Rail, Water Taxi, Commuter Rail, Bus, hubbed in Jacksonville Terminal plus perhaps 5 seamless interchange points surrounding the downtown core is the way to grow transit in Jacksonville.

We SHOULD finish what we started and get the Skyway to the Stadium, San Marco/Atlantic, Shand's, Riverside. At the end point mini-transit centers (al la Rosa Parks) the Skyway would be ground level for across the platform interchanges. I would replace all of the current PCT trolleys with TROLLEY BUS downtown. Streetcar would serve those downtown destinations that the Skyway can't reach economically, such as Water St., Beaver, Main, Newnan, Duval, Lee, Park, 8Th, Boulevard, Myrtle, etc... LRT would be a function of a Southbank - Beaches system. Regular BRT, diesel bus, and hybrids would then prowl the out lying suburban city. Commuter or Corridor Rail would reach the long distance commutes: Yulee, St. Augustine, Palatka, Gainesville.

As I've repeated over and over, MIX SELLS in transit. The more layers feeding (never competing) eachother the more attractive the spectrum becomes to all walks of life. No longer would the bus, be seen as transit for the poor.

BRT routes can be made more attractive with a FIXED trolley bus system, TOD'S ANYONE?


An ecomonically realistic fixed BRT route.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Lake, thanks for your thoughts.  But, with due respect, they are laced with more of the endless "apologies" for the never-enough systems (not the epicenter, only 22 miles, etc.) and "what ifs", just like Jax, while being held up as a model of what "we could be".  That's having your cake and eating it to.  You are entitled, but that won't convince a skeptic like me.

I'm not trying to convince you by pointing out your view brings up questions and needs to place things in proper context as well.  In any event, none of this really has anything to do with the point I was trying to make.  That point was even in its current state, it does not have to be the money pit it is right now. 

Let's review:

If they want to get more use and income out of it, it should be properly integrated with the bus system.  JTA should eliminate the DT bus loops making all riders headed for downtown use the skyway or the PCTs to get in and around the core.  Doing such, would probably cut bus operational costs, increase the skyway's revenue, cut down on bus travel times and make downtown's streets more livable/walkable.

It will be years before a streetcar runs through the streets of Jacksonville.  So it really has nothing to do with skyway integration.  Why not attempt to better integrate our inefficient bus system with it right now?  Will it cost any more than we're already paying?  Could we save money by streamlining the number of buses that currently loop downtown by feeding riders into the skyway and PCTs?

And, as to your questions, I think common sense gives me the grounds to conclude that there is no way the $ky-high-way can effectively substitute for buses and street cars.  If that was the case, $ky-high-ways would be popping up all over the country.  That sure as heck isn't happening.

Since we're talking about making better use with what we already have in place, building new skyways, streetcars or light rail doesn't really matter.  Our bus routes are currently non user friendly because no matter your destination, your route takes you in circles in and around downtown.  Making better use out of the PCTs and Skyway to serve downtown, right now, creates a more efficient system in the short term.

[CS Foltz]

I concur with making more efficient use of what we have! Skyway should have been longer and actually connect to something either at the ends or the middle but that's neither here nor there......right now it does not! Money to correct that problem will come from where? How much and where it would go to is still up in the air (no pun intended) and until we have a firm vision of what it could be...all else is conjecture! Today as in right now it is costing 7 Million dollars and what do we have for that money.........declining ridership! So the concept is nice but the execution sucks! Pull the plug and get it over with or get state/federal funds and make it into something we can use!