JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[stjr]

Two Skyway extensions have made the TPO and JTA studies and the Skyway ranked very high on the citizens opinion on which mode or transit we would like to see first....

Bottom line to all of our discussions, it isn't going to go away, and IT IS going to be expanded, my only reservation is the Sports District would have to be a place where an elevated train can do the most good.  Marco, Jacksonville Terminal or Riverside and ride above the traffic all the way into the stadium...

Ock. this is news to me.  I haven't seen nary a mention in the press but I guess they would rather report on the murder of the day than something that could actually impact large segments of our community.  I, for one, would be amazed and disappointed if this actually can be passed through for a third round after its repeated failure to meet even 10% of prior expectations for the existing system.  Once again, we will have an escalated example of a pork barrel project.  If it succeeds in being expanded and then fails once again as I fully expect, I hope you are around for the "I told you so's" I lavish you with.

Ranking high on "citizens opinion" doesn't translate into actual users.  Just as repeatedly demonstrated on the MJ threads, most people are ill or mis-informed about the $ky-high-way, its history of failures and false promises, its politics, who ultimately pays for it, what it costs, and how few people actually will ride it despite any opinions the may proffer to the contrary.  Like here on MJ, most people think its magically something for nothing, don't consider how to spend those same dollars more wisely, and don't compare it to other transit modes.  I would say your survey is not very credible - you can get the public to support anything if you ask the questions right or tell them what they want to hear.  Look how many dictators were elected first before they grabbed power.

JTA is setting itself up to look mighty foolish once again if they promote this boondoggle once more.  The courthouse embarrassment may pale by comparison.

[braeburn]

Bottom line to all of our discussions, it isn't going to go away, and IT IS going to be expanded, my only reservation is the Sports District would have to be a place where an elevated train can do the most good. 70,000 football fans are currently parking perhaps 30,000 automobiles down there. How much easier if they could park in San Marco, Jacksonville Terminal or Riverside and ride above the traffic all the way into the stadium.

OCKLAWAHA

Would the Skyway alone be able to accomodate that many people? How long would it take to deliver that many from all the parking lots and garages to a sports venue at the stadium? How about on the way back from a sports venue?

[CS Foltz]

Skyway is a good idea but the execution is lacking since it really goes nowhere! If it had been planned out with some vision or planning to begin with....that would have made all the difference. Looking at the total passanger count, money spent with no return! Trolley system or light rail makes much more sense to connect the downtown core to specific areas. The only thing the skyway system does is not create congestion at street level and that's good with the maze of one way streets, lack of public parking and congestion that currently permeates the core.

[Ocklawaha]

Yes the Skyway could handle it. The design with the completed trains (ours are not complete) can handle 30,000 passengers per direction, per hour.

The Skyway will continue to fall into neglect until the FTA antes up to extend it into the ege communities, FCJ, Springfield, Riverside/Brooklyn, San Marco, Stadium. At that point we need full operations 7 days a week.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

to be clear, the TPO is not necessarily recommending Skyway extensions....the two small extensions that are being shon on the maps are for discussion only at this point....the TPO Board will vote on the 2035 Needs Plan in September.

And, even if the projects make the Needs Plan, that doesn't mean they will be funded ion the 2035 Cost Feasible Plan....final adoption of the this plan will occur in November

[stjr]

Assuming TPO approves a set of projects, does it rank them for funding purposes?

In other words, if TPO were to rank commuter rail, street cars, and buses over the $ky-high-way, and there wasn't enough money to go around, would the lower ranking $ky-high-way have to wait last in line for funding?

I am sure we have enough sense in this community (that is certainly not a given!) to spend our money on the best mass transit projects first, not necessarily the ones that JTA is sentimentally attached to because they want to protect their existing jobs and chase their flawed dreams from yesteryear.

I don't understand how our community can cut funding for schools and vital quality of life services and then plan to find tens of millions to waste on the "Pie in the $ky-high-way"!

Tell me it's different funding sources but the fact is it's all our hard earned taxpayer dollars.  I would rather increase my taxes to the COJ and/or school board and reduce my federal taxes in order to reallocate any monies for the Pie in the $ky-high-way to something much more worthwhile, like education, parks, culture, history, environment, police and fire, etc.

[tufsu1]

The TPO will prioritize projects as part of the Cost Feasible Plan...they will also fund projects in 5-year increments between 2015 and 2035 (projects between 2010 and 2015 are considered committed)....but the reality is this order can (and does) change over time.

All that said, it would not be at all surprising to see the proposed Skyway extension into Brooklyn make the list....since the maintenance center is already there, the project cost would be relaively minimal....and would serve potential/proposed developments like Brooklyn Park and 200 Riverside.

The extension to Atlantic Blvd (San Marco) would be a bit more challenging as it has to go under I-95 and over the FEC tracks....but this would still be a short extension and the expected cost would also not be that high.

[stjr]

The TPO will prioritize projects as part of the Cost Feasible Plan...they will also fund projects in 5-year increments between 2015 and 2035 (projects between 2010 and 2015 are considered committed)....but the reality is this order can (and does) change over time.

All that said, it would not be at all surprising to see the proposed Skyway extension into Brooklyn make the list....since the maintenance center is already there, the project cost would be relaively minimal....and would serve potential/proposed developments like Brooklyn Park and 200 Riverside.

The extension to Atlantic Blvd (San Marco) would be a bit more challenging as it has to go under I-95 and over the FEC tracks....but this would still be a short extension and the expected cost would also not be that high.

Thanks, Tufsu.

I guess it amounts to politics as usual.  What makes TPO'ers think that development will follow the $ky-high-way in Brooklyn, and if it does, that it will deliver riders, when nothing of the sort has happened for the existing system in Downtown and San Marco?

And, just how much potential is there really, even if all the development they dreamed of took place?

I am sorry, common sense tells me this doesn't add up and reality proves me right so far.

What's on the side of dreamers?  Nothing but 90% shortfalls by the so called experts, millions of dollars wasted at the Federal, State, AND LOCAL levels, an ugly street killing structure that's a blight on the city, continuously declining ridership regardless of the economy, new development, population growth, OR previous EXPANSIONS, admissions by those who built it that it was a pork barrel project from the beginning that planners always knew would fail, etc.

Approval of more dollars for the Pie in the $ky-high-way will just continue to hold back all other mass transit projects in this community.  Proponents are failing to see they can't have everything they want, they need to pick the very best projects, and move on.  The $ky-high-way clearly isn't close to being a "very best" mass transit project.

[JaxNole]

Let's say Jacksonville embraces mass transit, that commuter rail, light rail, streetcars and other modes of mass transit come online in 2060. 

Let's dream high-density development, including residential, occurs along Riverside, in Brooklyn, LaVilla and the CBD.  Parking garages now house offices and retail above them and the land currently serving parking lots are then taken to a higher land use.  Bay, Laura and Adams streets create a synergy because of 30,000 residents and an established nighttime district that spans 10 blocks.  Residents have access within 32202 to a grocery store, a movie theater, shopping and at least two restaurants every block.

The 10-95 interchange is complete with Forest being the gateway to downtown.

Would the Skyway still not be a viable means of transport, including expansion?

It seems even the $3.5B Big Dig garners more support than the Skyway.

[stjr]

Let's say Jacksonville embraces mass transit, that commuter rail, light rail, streetcars and other modes of mass transit come online in 2060. 

Let's dream high-density development, including residential, occurs along Riverside, in Brooklyn, LaVilla and the CBD.  Parking garages now house offices and retail above them and the land currently serving parking lots are then taken to a higher land use.  Bay, Laura and Adams streets create a synergy because of 30,000 residents and an established nighttime district that spans 10 blocks.  Residents have access within 32202 to a grocery store, a movie theater, shopping and at least two restaurants every block.

The 10-95 interchange is complete with Forest being the gateway to downtown.

Would the Skyway still not be a viable means of transport, including expansion?

It seems even the $3.5B Big Dig garners more support than the Skyway.

Jaxnole, tell you what.  I'll see you back at this thread in 2060 and we can pickup a conversation on the $ky-high-way's future then IF everything you "dream" about comes true.   Until then, let's mothball (my real preference is demolition as I don't think it will ever be a preferred mode versus alternates) the thing and save the operating costs.  Certainly, don't expand it.  So far, none of your "dreams" (which I share) have come close to fruition and nothing at this point seems to indicate when, if ever, they will.  That why I have expanded it's nickname to Pie in the $ky-high-way! 

[mtraininjax]

Geez, why 2060? 50 years? This town changed a helluva lot in the past 2 years. Why go out 50 years?

[stjr]

Geez, why 2060? 50 years? This town changed a helluva lot in the past 2 years. Why go out 50 years?

That was JaxNole's timeline, not mine.  But, he might be right.

In the last 50 years, Jax has done close to nothing in the field of improving mass transit.  Given that the $ky-high-way is worthless and possibly has irreparably harmed the image of mass transit in Jax, all we have to look at is buses.  And, I would venture to say our bus system today is, in proportion to our population and total road trips, a mere shadow of itself 50 years ago.

For the last few years, talk of mass transit has heated up, but, to date, its been nothing except talk.  Not one firm commitment to a single substantive project.  It would be a travesty, should we have the opportunity to actually move forward, to give it to the $ky-high-way and, once again, destroy Jax's mass transit hopes for the next 50 years.

[mtraininjax]

the last 50 years, Jax has done close to nothing in the field of improving mass transit.

That is a bit strong and to me not true. The JTA express buses are a good idea and JTA is going to spend money on many of the stops. The Riverside Trolley and downtown trolleys are positive and good uses of public busses by the JTA.

They are not perfect and have more flaws that positives, but to say they have not done anything to improve mass transit for 50 years, just is not correct.

[CS Foltz]

I agree, to say they have not done anything is not quite correct! Just enhancements in the wrong direction and at the wrong time. New busses are fine and dandy, but something as mundane as "Bus stops that do not impede traffic" are something else! Half or better of the bus stops just on Bay Meadows stop traffic to load and unload passengers. During rush hours this is quite a stopper for traffic flow and yet nothing has ever been done about or said or discussed. I have noticed the same issue on Beach and Atlantic......once again no vision or plan! City Hall is not the only Agency with issue's as to a vision or even something as mundane as planning!

[Charles Hunter]

Reminds me of a sign I saw on the back of a bus - don't remember where, it was a long time ago, "If you were on the bus, you wouldn't be behind the bus!" 

In the newer parts (that is, recently rebuilt and widened) of Atlantic and Beach, there are places where buses can pull out of traffic for passengers. My guess is, that in the older sections of these roads, and on Baymeadows, there may not be enough room without getting into private property - which gets expensive in those commercial areas.