Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?

[Dog Walker]

Parking is free at the train station...and remember the more station stops you have, the slower the overall trip. Can't have 10 station stops between Jax and Miami and still expect it to get there in 5 hours.

Which is why train travel won't grow in this country until we can get high(er) speed rail like every other developed country in the world has already.  Paris to Lyon is about the same distance as Jax-Miami.  The trip takes less than two hours and stops five or six times on the way.  The trains run every thirty minutes from city center to city center.

[thelakelander]

There's a very good chance, most of the riders originating out of Jacksonville could be headed no farther south than St. Augustine and vise versa.  Why the focus on just Jax - Miami or long distance?  What about St. Augustine, Palm Coast, Daytona, Titusville, Cocoa, Melbourne, Fort Pierce and Stuart?  This is where rail can excel. 

[stjr]

Which is why train travel won't grow in this country until we can get high(er) speed rail like every other developed country in the world has already.  Paris to Lyon is about the same distance as Jax-Miami.  The trip takes less than two hours and stops five or six times on the way.  The trains run every thirty minutes from city center to city center.

Dog, that appears to imply some 200 mph average travel speed assuming 300 miles and 1.5 hours net of 5 stops @ 5 minutes each.  Is this correct?

[Jaxson]

It is about time that we bring passenger rail service back to Florida's east coast.  I hope that Jacksonville's city council will join the other localities in passing a resolution in support.

[tufsu1]

It would be nice for Jax. City Council to do it....but JTA and the TPO already did....and outside of Jax (and for most here) JTA is assumed to be the City.

[thelakelander]

Here is the reality check.  An $8 billion dollar budget and $102 billion in requests by 40 states and DC.  When the music stops, there will not be enough chairs for every player.

Grant requests roll in for high-speed rail
by Finance and Commerce staff

The Midwest has lots of competition when it comes to vying for federal grants for high-speed rail.

On July 16, the U.S. Department of Transportation announced that the Federal Rail Administration has received 278 “pre-applications” for grants from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act’s High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail competitive grant program.

The pre-applications represent $102 billion in requested funds; the ARRA’s $8 billion competitive grant program is a “down payment to develop high-speed and intercity passenger rail networks,” according to a DOT press release.

The president has proposed a continuing $1 billion “annual investment to further this effort,” the release continues.

By region, the breakdown of the pre-applications includes: $38 billion in requests from the West, $35 billion from the Northeast, $16 billion from the South/Southeast and $13 billion from the Midwest.

Forty states and the District of Columbia filed pre-applications.  “The response has been tremendous and shows that the country is ready for high-speed rail,” U.S. Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood said in a statement.

http://www.finance-commerce.com/article.cfm/2009/07/22/Grant-requests-roll-in-for-highspeed-rail

[Ocklawaha]

Amshack St. Louis, MO.

Lakelander:  I definitely agree with you on all those points.  Also... "Amshack," very nice!

JeffreyS:  Eliminating slow spots is a perfect example of what is being done in the New York City-Albany corridor.  Most of the improvements that are being applied are to eliminate these "slow spots."  As I stated earlier, there are sections along that route that run 110 MPH, however, there are also several areas that narrow from double track to single track, small railroad yards, and even grade crossings where the 110 speed limit drops to 50 and even 30.

Again, it is very exciting news that this is being set in motion.  Just making sure we're not making this into something it's not.  Also, let's hope that Jacksonville can seize this opportunity by moving its station back downtown and becoming a true railroad hub again!

Albany, NY. Amshack

All, you have heard me refer to the station on the northside as an Amshack for some time. This is NOT to say all Amtrak stations are Amshacks, in fact far from it. Most of the stations nationwide are historic, gingerbread, Gothic, colonial, art deco, Egyptian, or any number of other grand and eye popping styles. The term Amshack is not mine either, rather a handle that the railroaders placed on a batch of quickly designed replacement stations across the country within 3-4 years of their start. REMEMBER Amtrak was at first staffed by former airline and bus folks because according to the US House, Railroaders no longer knew how to operate a passenger service. (BTW, these guys self destructed in record time dragging Amtrak into a stew of endless abandonment schemes and slander). St. Louis, Poinciana, Jacksonville, Norfolk, Cincinnati, Norfolk and a handful of others all got replacement stations of shoebox size... THUS the birth of the "AMSHACK". Anyone making a pilgrimage from Jacksonville Terminal to Clifford Lane will quickly convert to the doctrine of Amshacks - a house of shame. What's worse is that at least 1/2 of the Amshack's are abandoned already.


Elko, NV. Amshack

I can drive from Jax to Miami in under six hours. (Legally!)  If the train can't cut at least one hour off that time, an average of about 60mph, then forget about it.  If I have to drive out to the station in North Jax and pay to park my car then it had better be at least another thirty minutes off the travel time.

Birmingham, AL. Amshack (where Terminal Station once stood)

Dog Walker, try the same high speed run with 8 - 12 stops of 4 minutes each. Include one half way point stop for a bit of servicing... say New Smyrna Beach or Fort Pierce. Also you MUST operate only on US highway 1. If your still talking about 5 hours then be my guest! The last FEC train made the run leaving Jax at 9:55 am and arrival in Miami at 4:35 pm. It seldom got above 60 miles per hour (as the FEC wanted it to GO AWAY and thus discouraged passenger travel). 90 may not be true high speed rail, but if you look at the fastest growing corridors in the nation... San Joaquin Valley, California Coastal Routes, Washington-Oregon Cascade Corridor etc... NONE are high speed. Just frequent, reliable, clean, comfortable trains and they have killed the airlines and dented auto traffic all along their routes. This proved that it's not speed as much as it is overall experience with the product that sells seats. Never consider train travel in the same breath as airlines, bus or car, rail travel has more in common with a cruise ships then any of the former. Because one can move about, visit different cars, relax in a honest to God pub/tavern/lounge, or eat in the 5 star restaurant with changing views set it worlds apart. For many years (perhaps still) the Silver Meteor or Star had a piano in the lounge with live music at night, I defy anyone to try that on a scheduled 737. Movies, dances, fashion shows, card games, phone calls, or just plain shooting the breeze is the ultimate experience while "driving".

Train virgins are easy to spot. They are the ones sitting while starving and think the food cart will roll past at any moment.
They think in terms of point A to point B, leave A and arrive at B, they can't tell you what anything looked like between the points. Sadly this is the same Generation of Virgins that think Columbus was the mayor of Ohio. They are so accustomed to 14" seats that they rush on the train and place a brief case in the seat next to them, as if to guard it from takeover. Later in the trip the Conductor will walk past and explain that the 14" plus the 14" beside that are ALL ONE SEAT and the virgin owns it. They'll endlessly boast about finding a flight out on that stormy cold Chicago night 3 years ago, and how though delayed 10 hours, they finally made it St. Louis. Meanwhile somewhere far below, Amtrak's Ann Rutledge was whipping up its own blizzard 2 minutes ahead of schedule and into St. Louis on the advertised. Amtrak virgins will most often drink the liquid from the finger bowl, or order a hamburger in the dining car. If they did slow down enough to read the menu, the fillet of Mountain Trout, Queen Ann Soup, or stuffed pork tenderloins on real china and crystal might have spoiled them for life.

Last but not least, I agree that The Avenues is a MUST for a future commuter rail stop, but then so is San Marco. This would be like the Orlando - Winter Park, back - to - back stops. In fact the original South Jacksonville station was North of Atlantic AND San Marco in the area between the old South Jacksonville city buildings and the JEA switching station. Winter Park has no great barrier between it and Orlando, but Jacksonville has the river AND the potential of the Skyway meeting the trains in San Marco or Jackson Square, as well as the main Jacksonville Terminal.


Houston's "Grand Central Station" = AMSHACK

OCKLAWAHA

[jbroadglide]

Ock..so well said that there is nothing that can be added to make it better!

[Dog Walker]

Which is why train travel won't grow in this country until we can get high(er) speed rail like every other developed country in the world has already.  Paris to Lyon is about the same distance as Jax-Miami.  The trip takes less than two hours and stops five or six times on the way.  The trains run every thirty minutes from city center to city center.

Dog, that appears to imply some 200 mph average travel speed assuming 300 miles and 1.5 hours net of 5 stops @ 5 minutes each.  Is this correct?

Yes, the train runs faster than 200mph.  The trip take almost TWO hours though.  There was a speed record set on that track with test train a couple of years ago that topped out at over 300mph.  This makes us look like a third world country.  I think passenger trains in India have a higher average speed than ours.

[jbroadglide]

One thing to remember that allows the French Train to go at such speeds is that there are no grade crossings. No place where a 200mph train might hit a car with a white haired old lady who was too deaf or too disoriented to see the warning gates and lights flashing. In the NE Corridor where the Acela can run at its top speeds there are also no grade crossings. To do that between Jax and Miami would require FEC, the state of Florida, Amtrak and the DOT to either close every single grade crossing, my guess hundreds of them, or make the grade crossing so idiot proof that there is no possible way anyone could be on the tracks when a train is approaching..And we all know the stupidity of Florida drivers and how they just can't afford to wait 30 seconds for a train to pass. Or raising or lowering the highways to either go over or under the tracks. All of those options are costly and probably will never happen. So seeing a true High Speed Rail, ala France, Japan or England is just never going to happen here in Florida.

[Dog Walker]

They had the same grade crossing problem in Europe.  In the cities, the TGV runs on the regular tracks at regular speeds.  In the countryside, where they really fly,  and there are way fewer grade crossing, they elevate the tracks or lower the roadway or both.

In Europe, people seem to respect the crossings more than in this country.  It may be because the trains are so much more frequent and moving faster.  Maybe they are shorter too.

We are a much richer country than France.  If they could afford a high speed rail system, why can't we.  It's a matter of priorities, not cost.

[JeffreyS]

Europe was able to grow their hsr from active passenger train societies we stunted our passenger train growth long ago so we may have to take some growth steps before true hsr is an option.

[Jaxson]

I think that we can work to remove the single grade crossings but it would require the same kind of funding and patience that we invest in our freeway upgrades.  I drive along the I-95/I-10 interchange and wonder when they will finish that neverending project - but I think about how much better things will be when it is finished.

The best upgrade for rail travel in our area, in my opinion, will be the return of a passenger rail terminal to downtown Jacksonville.  The current facility on Clifford Lane is shameful as it does nothing for arriving out-of-town passengers.  Even our Greyhound station has better amenities for people as they come into our city.  As it is now, all you have are restrooms and snack machines.  Even if passengers wanted to spend their money in our area, they are stuck with buying a soda and a bag of chips.

[tufsu1]

FYI...each at-grade crossing replaced by an overpass would cost $10 million or more.

[stjr]

FYI...each at-grade crossing replaced by an overpass would cost $10 million or more.

Another option and favorite of railroads:  Just close and/or abandon the crossings and redirect the traffic elsewhere.  Many have been closed in Jax over the years and at least one, River Oaks Road, is under discussion.