JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[hightowerlover]

just dont hire the guy who did the disney monorail

[stjr]

They need to leave the Skyway as is.  It has not worked in the past and its elevated piers/tracks are visual blight.  New forms of transport are more viable and cost effective.  It would be unattractive to run the skyway right in front of all the future architecture along riverside avenue.  Ground level transport is more attractive and user friendly.

The Professor knows best!

Geesh, this is like a bad weed in the yard that just keeps coming back!  Well, guess what?  So do I.  

I've already given my many reasons (overlapping with the Professor's) on countless other MJ $ky-high-way related threads on why extending this ugly animal's trunk into Riverside and elsewhere is really more of an extension of wasting money.  Money that could be spent on other mass transit projects with much better returns on investment and service to the greater community.

As to this "available" right of way, let it be the beginning of a street car line from downtown to Riverside/Avondale/Ortega, a public space/park, or sold for some innovative developments and be on with it!

There is no genie in this bottle and rubbing it countless times isn't going to make one appear   .

[Steve]

^However, parking is not tight, except on full stadium events (Jaguars, Florida-Georgia, Gator Bowl, etc)

[stjr]

Just 11 game days would double the annual ridership. Currently hovering at about 390,000 per year, to perhaps 720,000. These numbers consider the Skyway at capacity for one hour before and after each game. This is interesting because there are a lot more venues downtown then simply the Jaguars.

OCKLAWAHA

I'm not sure how you count ridership, Ock.  If a "ride" is a one way trip, we are talking about less than 2,000 trips average per day.  If these are round trips, that's only 1,000 people average per day served.  I am sure the bus system could serve a lot more people than that with the money.  Or a street car.  Or a trolley.  Or, maybe, even a taxi   .

I don't see 25% to 50% of the stadium crowd piling on the $ky-high-way for game day unless they all lived downtown and the weather was too bad to walk.  With all due respect, this would be, if used by a consultant, another "back door" fantasy number to help achieve a traffic count desired to justify the project.  Once built, it will fail miserably to be achieved in the real world just as all other traffic projections for the $ky-high-way's previous original and extended contructions have been off by 90%!

[heights unknown]

How far down Riverside will it extend?  From reading the above article, they are not thinking logically or really focusing on the here and now if it ends near Blue Cross/Blue Shield as someone stated; it appears they're hedging their bets on increased growth along the Riverside Avenue Corridor...in my opinion there is just not enough along that corridor at present to justify extending the skyway, however, if they said they were extending it all the way down to near five points, that my friends would be a more valid and sensible reason and justification for this extension.  If they build it now, and stick to the plan as is, they will be again building a portion of the skyway to "nowhere."

Heights Unknown

[thelakelander]

^Future plans would link Riverside and Five Points to Downtown with a streetcar line.  An argument could be made that this same streetcar line could also serve this area.

[TheProfessor]

Streetcars interact as oppose to hover above the pedestrian.  I think this in your face approach would encourage ridership and interface with the buildings better than an elevated skyway system.  If they would only convert the skyway into light rail and let it hit the ground level at its expansion points, then the future expansion would have better integration.

[ralpho37]

Would it be a viable option to extend the Skyway down Riverside Ave at street level?  (Kind of defeats the purpose of calling it the "Skyway," but it might be more attractive and more easily accessed at street level).

[thelakelander]

If it ran at street level, you would not be able to cross it at grade.  So if you were traveling by car, foot, or bike, from downtown to Riverside, you would not be able to make a right turn between the Acosta Bridge and Edison Street.

[JaxNative68]

I think the Riverside/Jax Landing trolley summer ridership exceeded the Skyway annual ridership.

If the trolley system could be more of a permanent structure (aka street car) and ran from Riverside to the stadium area on one line; and ran from San Marco to FCCJ Downtown campus with an intersecting hub somewhere near Hemming Plaza it would be a success.  Even if the skyway effectively ran these lines, it would be more of a success.  As is the Skyway is a joke.  I can walk from the King Street station to the San Marco Station faster than waiting on and riding the skyway there.  Not to mention how slow it is when taking it from the King Street Station to Hemming Plaza.  At its current rate of travel, it just isn't very practical.

Can you imagine trying to commute from the beaches to downtown on the skyway system?  Jacksonville's suicide rate would skyrocket from people jumping off the elevated tracks.

Whatever system Jacksonville decides to put in place needs to be reliable and quick

[Shwaz]

I think the Riverside/Jax Landing trolley summer ridership exceeded the Skyway annual ridership.

If the trolley system could be more of a permanent structure (aka street car) and ran from Riverside to the stadium area on one line; and ran from San Marco to FCCJ Downtown campus with an intersecting hub somewhere near Hemming Plaza it would be a success.  Even if the skyway effectively ran these lines, it would be more of a success.  As is the Skyway is a joke.  I can walk from the King Street station to the San Marco Station faster than waiting on and riding the skyway there.  Not to mention how slow it is when taking it from the King Street Station to Hemming Plaza.  At its current rate of travel, it just isn't very practical.

Can you imagine trying to commute from the beaches to downtown on the skyway system?  Jacksonville's suicide rate would skyrocket from people jumping off the elevated tracks.

Whatever system Jacksonville decides to put in place needs to be reliable and quick

No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Personally I would take it from 5 points daily to work and if possible straight to the stadium on game-days. I believe there are enough people like me who would commute to their workplace downtown from Riverside, San Marco â€" then over to a Suns game after work or the bay st. strip on Friday nights with of course a safe / cheap ride back home at the end of the evening. An extended skyway (and possible street car) would make downtown more accessible for both work & play period.

[stjr]

No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Shwaz, an elevator in the tallest structure in the world wouldn't go more than about 2,500 feet.  That is, tops, a half mile.  The $ky-high-way does, and is proposed to, extend many times that distance.  So, elevator (or other relatively slow) speeds are already an issue in the present application expanded as proposed, or not.

And, no, I don't see this discussion being resolved by expressing a personal opinion based on one's own desire to ride it.  Rather, the debate should be focused on the context of the entire community to be served and invoiced for its costs and against what other options/solutions the $ky-high-way might be measured against.  Unfortunately, you appear to be practicing the claim you make, making your decision to support this on your singular needs only.  That's your prerogative, but that won't go far in convincing several hundred thousand (or millions, if federal money is used) of your fellow taxpayers to support your position.

[Fallen Buckeye]

I can walk from the King Street station to the San Marco Station faster than waiting on and riding the skyway there.  Not to mention how slow it is when taking it from the King Street Station to Hemming Plaza.  At its current rate of travel, it just isn't very practical.

Can you imagine trying to commute from the beaches to downtown on the skyway system?  Jacksonville's suicide rate would skyrocket from people jumping off the elevated tracks.

Whatever system Jacksonville decides to put in place needs to be reliable and quick.

I don't think most people would ride it only for one stop . I usually use it when I'm parked somewhere in San Marco and want to go across the river say to the Landing or some distance longer than a few blocks. When you ride it in those terms it is more worth the wait. Although I do agree that you have to wait a little too long for some of the cars. Seems like in Miami you don't have that long of a wait usually.

From my experience, it seems that the people mover in Miami is well used (just based on the times I've ridden it not actual figures) because it's an inexpensive way (for the riders not taxpayers) to get to those places that are just beyond a comfortable walking distance fairly quickly. Considering that the attractions in urban Jax are so spread out Skyway could be link for connecting downtown within itself. I don't think Skyway is intended for a suburban commute. That's more in the realm of light rail or BRT I'd say. It is only a part of a wider system.

I do wonder how streetcars compare as far as operational costs compared to monorail and the trolley buses though.

[thelakelander]

Streetcar O&M costs are lower than buses made to look like trolleys and monorails.  They also have the ability to stimulate infill pedestrian friendly development (more property tax income for a struggling city budget) and attract more riders than fake trolleys.

[Ocklawaha]

This is a monorail done RIGHT, compaire this with our own and count the dollars!

just don't hire the guy who did the Disney monorail

Funny hightowerlover... Keep in mind the accident there killed the operator. I will go out on the limb and tell everyone in advance that it was caused by the signaling system. This involves all operation, blocks, sensors, lights etc. The train may not pass a sensor without automatically setting the brakes. Somehow she passed TWO blocks and nothing happened until she hit the stopped train. As she was in a curve, she probably only had seconds to react. The signals I believe are United Technologies, formerly Union Switch and Signal. The monorail builders both there and here are completely different.

Streetcars interact as oppose to hover above the pedestrian.  I think this in your face approach would encourage ridership and interface with the buildings better than an elevated skyway system.  If they would only convert the skyway into light rail and let it hit the ground level at its expansion points, then the future expansion would have better integration.

Hey Professor, got to tweak your railroadology and as a ferroequinologist preach and teach... Any great transit system will consist of a mix of modes and routes, more or less laid out like patches in a quilt. Each mode tends to feed the next and each mode can be located where it operates most efficiently. While the Skyway was never intended to be a longer range system, such a system would be ideal for locations such as Mayport NS, or NAS Jax, to the surrounding areas. As the traffic disperses, you would want lighter density connections such as a bus or single streetcar. Most of the price tag of the Skyway is found in the bridge and the operations and maintenance base across the street from the TU newspaper. The per mile today for a single track line shouldn't be much different then that of a quality Light Rail System. As it now stands the Skyway is nearly useless to us. As the heavy expenses are behind us, we could extend from the current stations into locations that would have a future in feeding the whole network. Some examples of my vision would be:

Kings Avenue to Hilton - San Marco (Atlantic Av. Next to, and West of the Railroad tracks) : 2 stations needed. Would ultimately connect with the Amtrak corridor trains at a Atlantic Av Station, Bus Rapid Transit to Philips, San Jose, and Beach, plus local bus services, shuttles etc.

Central Station to Stadium: 3 stations needed: Newnan St Intermodal, Shipyards and Stadium/Parks complex. connecting with buses and streetcars at Newnan. Sports/Parks Complex station would direct skywalk access to the stadium, as well as the "mother of all parking garages" complete with easy on / easy off freeway ramps from both the Hart and Matthews Bridges.

Riverside Extension: 3 new stations: One in front of the Skyway Operations Center and the second at Edison Avenue and Riverside (I would NOT go behind or west of the buildings at BCBS) and the last a true intermodal/TOD station-theater-mall at Annie Lytle. The Annie Station would offer limited parking, a grand paseo directly into 5-Points, bus, BRT, Streetcar and Taxi lanes. The whole school would then be redeveloped into a "Landing" sort of place.

Jacksonville Terminal: Station and line is already in place, a covered walk or pedestrian tunnel from the Skyway to the Concourse of the Terminal would make for an easy transfer, as well as a sheltered walk to the streetcars. Amtrak has already been looking at this as a feeder to the system. The Skyway definitely got their attention.

As far as "in your face" and integration, the tighter the matrix the better the ultimate system. The better the mix the better the traffic opportunities. The Skyway does not have to be a dead or dying railroad.

Would it be a viable option to extend the Skyway down Riverside Ave at street level?  (Kind of defeats the purpose of calling it the "Skyway," but it might be more attractive and more easily accessed at street level).

Ralph, it isn't viable as Lakelander pointed out, because it is impossible to cross at grade. Many savings could be realized by bringing the end point terminals down to grade level just for the short distance of the station itself. This would only be an option at San Marco (FEC RY and ATLANTIC) where it could create a cross platform transfer to the bus or train. Another location where the Skyway could come down to grade would be at the Stadium / Parks station in the East Side, or old Fairfield. Several early monorails built around 1820-1880 were built at ground level only to be torn out by street crossing demands.

I think the Riverside/Jax Landing trolley summer ridership exceeded the Skyway annual ridership.

If the trolley system could be more of a permanent structure (aka street car) and ran from Riverside to the stadium area on one line; and ran from San Marco to FCCJ Downtown campus with an intersecting hub somewhere near Hemming Plaza it would be a success.  Even if the skyway effectively ran these lines, it would be more of a success.  As is the Skyway is a joke.  I can walk from the King Street station to the San Marco Station faster than waiting on and riding the skyway there.  Not to mention how slow it is when taking it from the King Street Station to Hemming Plaza.  At its current rate of travel, it just isn't very practical.

Can you imagine trying to commute from the beaches to downtown on the skyway system?  Jacksonville's suicide rate would skyrocket from people jumping off the elevated tracks.

Whatever system Jacksonville decides to put in place needs to be reliable and quick

No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Personally I would take it from 5 points daily to work and if possible straight to the stadium on game-days. I believe there are enough people like me who would commute to their workplace downtown from Riverside, San Marco â€" then over to a Suns game after work or the bay st. strip on Friday nights with of course a safe / cheap ride back home at the end of the evening. An extended skyway (and possible street car) would make downtown more accessible for both work & play period.

JaxNative68, Speed is altogether a different matter, in fact the Skyway has been up to 50 miles per hour in tests. I would imagine pretty much a galloping goose at that speed. You are correct in the summary that speed isn't one of it's selling points though it could be, but sight seeing, and laying back after a hard day in the office make it most desireable. The original concept was for a river crossing more or less at the foot of Laura Street, had it been built that way, getting from Southside to the Northbank would have been a snap, but the Landing would have been a mess.

On another note, The "Trolley System" is neither a trolley nor a system. If the Trolley System were made up of REAL Trolleys, be it bus or rail, the ridership would go sky high. The sound and air pollution would drop to zero with electric powered transit, and Jacksonville would be selling carbon credits to other cities or major companies in the world market. Perhaps we would be the first City to make money on Mass Transit, but we need to: "Plan for it to work, and work on our Plan!"

No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Shwaz, an elevator in the tallest structure in the world wouldn't go more than about 2,500 feet.  That is, tops, a half mile.  The $ky-high-way does, and is proposed to, extend many times that distance.  So, elevator (or other relatively slow) speeds are already an issue in the present application expanded as proposed, or not.

And, no, I don't see this discussion being resolved by expressing a personal opinion based on one's own desire to ride it.  Rather, the debate should be focused on the context of the entire community to be served and invoiced for its costs and against what other options/solutions the $ky-high-way might be measured against.  Unfortunately, you appear to be practicing the claim you make, making your decision to support this on your singular needs only.  That's your prerogative, but that won't go far in convincing several hundred thousand (or millions, if federal money is used) of your fellow taxpayers to support your position.

Shwaz, You are correct that the Skyway, Miami's Metro Mover, Detroit's People Mover, or the shuttles at the Orlando International Airport are more elevator then they are express train. The technology is in place today and with a slight update to our application, the Skyway could be blowing through stops where no one is getting on or off. Again, just like an elevator, only much faster. A fact that few seem to know is that any electric transit vehicle, should have a rate of acceleration superior to internal combustion vehicles. In summary, the Jacksonville Skyway can accelerate at a pace that would blow the doors off the big gray buses.

stjr, This discussion will not be resolved unless we find a conservative way to build mass transit. You should be looking out for your fellow taxpayers and insist that our city does not invest in Mass Transit as it is only an accommodation needed by the poor. All modes of Transit should operate at a profit and cover all initial investment or sundry charges. If people need a way to move around the City, we should immediately add lanes to our freeways, and consider building a new freeway through the middle of downtown. It is only the consultants and so called experts that suggest a $kyway would be cheaper then a freeway in per mile costs. There is nothing personal about refusing facts published by The Monorail Society, JTA, USDOT, or The American Public Transportation Association, Claiming that you would ride a monorail based on where you work, live or play is pure speculation. Along with more lane miles within the metropolis, a flexible transit system operating on 45 minute headways should be sufficient  provided it is not subsidized by the American people. (DID I GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME MY NEGATIVE FRIEND?)

Quote from Fallen Buckeye:
I do wonder how streetcars compare as far as operational costs compared to monorail and the trolley buses though.

This depends on a couple of flexible factors but all things equal here's an idea:
Electric Streetcars are probably the cheapest, and long lived form of transit ever invented (BTW did you know it's a true American invention? Unlike monorails (German) or buses (France and the UK)) the electric streetcar made it's appearance in Richmond, Virginia. Monorails are generally more expensive to build and as most (including the Skyway) roll on rubber tires they tend to have a life span not unlike that of automobiles. Trolley buses also are limited in their life span, however the mechanical componets are about the same as streetcars. Operator expense seats per operator, the monorail wins, in our case there is NO (per train) operator so labor is really cheap. After that streetcars as they can run in trains. buses would be the most expensive by seats per operator. The overhead wires on a trolley bus are more complex then that of streetcars. trolley buses can't ground the circuit through rubber tires so a return or negative wire is needed. Monorails generally use a third rail (Skyway does too) which is much more complex then simple single trolley wire. Streetcars in both Maine and California are in daily operation at an age in excess of 100 years. In New Orleans the Pearl Thomas cars are all 80+ years old and still in daily service. The oldest monorail in the USA is in Seattle and it dates from 1962.

ALL OTHERS:
As an alternative to streetcars, light rail, water taxi's and buses, trolleys, trolley buses and unicycles, we have new words from the BUS RAPID TRANSIT camp. With your permission, I will translate the latest sales pitch from the highway gods. Each point is marked by bullets and the translation is marked by a Astrix (*)

The underlying concept of BRT is simple:duplicate the reliability, level of service, comfort, and appeal of a modern LRT line while achieving the flexibility and cost-effectiveness inherent in bus systems. BRT services should include the following attributes:
• Exclusive bus lanes, bus streets, and busways *BRT runs on streets that in spite of expense, nobody else can use.
• Bus signal priority or preemption *BRT will be able to turn a red light into a green one just like streetcars did in 1920
• Reliability *Like all buses, the BRT will always be on time.
• Traffic management improvements *Get out of the way
• Improved fare collection and boarding/alighting patterns *You can buy your ticket in Wal-Mart
• Appealing bus designs and seating arrangements *Somebody painted the bus bench
• Integration of transit station development with adjacent land-use policy *The bus stop will have a bench and roof.
• Improved facilities and passenger amenities such as stations and enhanced stops * two benches and two roofs

And for all of this appeal, we'll only pay $26 Million dollars a mile...

OCKLAWAHA