Do you want a Streetcar System Downtown?

[Jason]

This is the plan I've been picturing.  I've included my vision of a comprehensive yet simple region wide plan as well as a downtown system that compliments a completed skyway and prevents duplication of routes.

This system connects most major residential areas to all major airports (JIA, Herlong, Cecil, Craig, St. Aug Municipal), most major shopping districts (Town Center, Avenues, Regency, Downtown,), most major entertainment districts, and most major office, industrial, and commercial work areas (NAS Jax, Cecil, Tallyrand, Downtown, Gate Pkwy, and Phillips Hwy industrial centers.

This system caters to the casual shopper, commuter, buisness traveler, and tourist.  Add a bus system that acts as a feeder to channel in people to the regional system and there will be very few places that can't be accessed without a car.


Key:

Lt. Blue = Skyway (existing & new)
Dk. Blue = Streetcar Route
Red = Streetcar Route
Yellow = Commuter Rail/DMU Route
Orange = BRT/Heavy Rail/Light Rail Route


Overall system:





Downtown system:











Southside Shopping Loop:







Beaches Line:







St. Augustine Historic District:

[midnightblackrx]

That would be a great way to get around town and to the stadium district which I see as a very underutilized "potential" gold mine. It's just difficult to get there. Luckily I live a mile from it and can walk to a game, but I  would love to take a short trolley to avoid parking and driving hassles.

But, clue me in...tell me the difference between Trolleys and Street Cars to the untrained schmo they seem interchangeable terms  

[Johnny]

I know this isn't going to be a popular comment and I wouldn't have agreed with it previously, but I am really starting to think it'd be best to scrap the Skyway experiment entirely. Start a new system that works, lick our wounds and go another direction. I hate waste, but I feel it may be necessary.

[anothertechy]

This is the plan I've been picturing.  I've included my vision of a comprehensive yet simple region wide plan as well as a downtown system that compliments a completed skyway and prevents duplication of routes.

This system connects most major residential areas to all major airports (JIA, Herlong, Cecil, Craig, St. Aug Municipal), most major shopping districts (Town Center, Avenues, Regency, Downtown,), most major entertainment districts, and most major office, industrial, and commercial work areas (NAS Jax, Cecil, Tallyrand, Downtown, Gate Pkwy, and Phillips Hwy industrial centers.

This system caters to the casual shopper, commuter, buisness traveler, and tourist.  Add a bus system that acts as a feeder to channel in people to the regional system and there will be very few places that can't be accessed without a car.


Key:

Lt. Blue = Skyway (existing & new)
Dk. Blue = Streetcar Route
Red = Streetcar Route
Yellow = Commuter Rail/DMU Route
Orange = BRT/Heavy Rail/Light Rail Route


Overall system:





Downtown system:











Southside Shopping Loop:







Beaches Line:







St. Augustine Historic District:

im 18 years old and from what i see i would much rather have a transit system like san francisco than have this crap trolley shit downtown, we need to updrade and do it soon ! im all for a system like this!

[anothertechy]

Do you want a Streetcar System Downtown?



JTA wants to know if you would support a real streetcar system in Jacksonville.  Here's your chance to let everyone know.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/636

im 18 years old and from what i see i would much rather have a transit system like san francisco than have this crap trolley shit downtown, we need to updrade and do it soon ! im all for a system like this! it would bring so much more attention to jacksonville and stuff !!!

[Steve]

I know this isn't going to be a popular comment and I wouldn't have agreed with it previously, but I am really starting to think it'd be best to scrap the Skyway experiment entirely. Start a new system that works, lick our wounds and go another direction. I hate waste, but I feel it may be necessary.

That sounds like a good plan, but are you prepared to write the $200 million check to the Feds if we scrap it (that's apparently the result)

[Johnny]

I know this isn't going to be a popular comment and I wouldn't have agreed with it previously, but I am really starting to think it'd be best to scrap the Skyway experiment entirely. Start a new system that works, lick our wounds and go another direction. I hate waste, but I feel it may be necessary.

That sounds like a good plan, but are you prepared to write the $200 million check to the Feds if we scrap it (that's apparently the result)

Why would Jax owe the Fed $200 mil? Is that money they paid Jacksonville to create the skyway? What did Jax do with that $? I find it hard to believe they spent $200 million on that. If they used the money on something else then, they should pay it back.

Actually, I take that back... I would not be surprised if they didn't spend 10 times that, seeing as how Jacksonville's government operates.

[thelakelander]

They spent an amazing $184 million on the 2.5 mile Skyway.  There have been heavy rail systems with tunnels built for cheaper prices.

[Johnny]

They spent an amazing $184 million on the 2.5 mile Skyway.  There have been heavy rail systems with tunnels built for cheaper prices.

OK, I'm not really surprised, but is there any reason why the money would have to be paid back to the Feds?

[Ocklawaha]

im 18 years old and from what i see i would much rather have a transit system like san francisco than have this crap trolley shit downtown, we need to updrade and do it soon ! im all for a system like this! it would bring so much more attention to jacksonville and stuff !!!

Anothertechy, interesting point of view. As the rail guy here, perhaps I should mention that San Francisco has an extensive Trolley Network, ONE LINE of that network is with historic streetcars. That line handles not only real Transit loads but also a BUNCH of tourism, that we could use $$. These are not the historic cable-cars, which are not Trolleys at all. These are pure electric streetcars, most are modern rail vehicles called LRT. They cost less then heavy rail but can be operated in trains of as many cars as desired.

If you are speaking of Heavy Rail, San Francisco also has that. It is the Bay Area Rapid Transit or BART. BART was a pace setting adventure, being the first major new heavy rail start-up in 50 years when it was built. There were some bad mistakes in the system, but today it is flying high, even with it's crazy wide gauge track. When BART was built, people around the USA were convinced the railroads would be gone by 2000, so it didn't matter what the gauge was...wide gauge = better ride. While this is true, it also = big buck custom work on every single piece of the system. Now they are sort of stuck with the weird size trains, and continue to have OMG moments... OMG Trains didn't die... OMG This can get expensive... and OMG we are glad we didn't go with buses because we really thought all trains were dead!

My professional opinion is that Heavy Rail just doesn't suit Jacksonville, even if we had another million persons and more money then brains. Sadly, we seem to be missing all three Heavy Rail components: another million persons, excess money, and completely brain dead in Transit leadership. A good mix of LRT AND commuter trains, something else found in San Francisco, would work great here. Mix sells Transit. Choice sells. Skyway, Commuter Rail, LRT, Heritage Trolley, Trolley-BUS, BRT, City Bus, Commuter Bus and Special Needs Buses would blow this City into an Orlando-Miami-Dallas-Charlotte like orbit.

Ocklawaha

[lindab]

 
CNN.com    

New Orleans' streetcars roll again

   
NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (AP) -- Amid a Carnival-like atmosphere, streetcars began rolling past the historic mansions of this city's Garden District Saturday for the first time since Hurricane Katrina halted the St. Charles Avenue line more than two years ago.

While only about half of the line is reopened, many see the return of the 1920s-era green cars as a sign of progress in the city's recovery and a morale booster.

"It's like having another piece of the puzzle, another piece of the city" back, said Melisa Rey, who rode on the first of a string of cars with her husband, Tom, and 10-month-old daughter, Jeanne-Marie. "It's so nice to finally have some good publicity," Tom Rey added.

Six of the 13 miles where the cars once ran are now open on the St. Charles line, and officials hope to restore full service by spring.

It's been slow going in large part due to the cost and scope of the storm's damage to the line's power system, due for an upgrade before the August 2005 storm. Mark Major, general manager of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority, praised federal highway officials for providing $14 million that he said was key to the resumption of the service.

Politicians and local officials were on hand, as they were in December when an initial loop of about 1.2 miles opened. But the feel was different, more festive. VideoWatch brass band celebrate return of St. Charles streetcars »

On Saturday, a marching band led the streetcars down to the Lee Circle loop. Revelers dotted the oak-lined avenue -- some waving or holding up drinks, others carrying signs that read "No More Bus" or "Welcome Back," or offering riders Mardi Gras beads or high-fives.

Councilwoman Stacy Head called the streetcars part of the city's identity -- "everything from the noise, the clanging down the avenue to the lights at night." The St. Charles line was the oldest continuously operating line in the world before Katrina shut it down in August 2005. It began operation in September 1835.

"It's what makes New Orleans feel like home," Head said. "It's as important as red beans and rice and Mardi Gras, and it's hard to explain to people who aren't part of this city how important this is as an icon and a real-life form of transportation."

Karen Miller grew up riding the streetcar and took it to work before Katrina. It's not just for tourists, and it's far more fun than riding a bus -- especially when the windows are down, she said. A warm breeze blew through the car in which she was riding.

Transit officials expect to run about five cars on the St. Charles line. The fare is $1.25 beginning Sunday; people got to take rides for free Saturday afternoon. Four or five streetcars also are running on the Canal Street line and two are available along the riverfront.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

All AboutHurricane Katrina • New Orleans



Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/11/katrina.streetcar.ap/index.html

[Ocklawaha]

From METROJACKSONVILLE 2007:
JTA wants to know if you would support a real streetcar system in Jacksonville.  Here's your chance...

ROBERT MANN 1981:
The (SKYWAY EXPRESS), the Jacksonville system would virtually be a gift from Uncle Sam, a three- or
four- mile $150 million dollar gift. The trouble with gifts of this nature is that someone has to pay to maintain the thing and what happens if the entire system proves to be a turkey? What about 5 or 15 years from now? Will a sleek little box that rolls along, akin to an airport shuttle system, really be the answer for an urban sprawl that may someday reach St.Augustine?"
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METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: JTA's BRT proposal is very damaging for downtown.  Not only does it replace hundreds of parallel parking spaces with lanes that have buses running on them every 90 seconds during peak hours, it also parallel's the $184 million dollar skyway.  By having BRT stops at every skyway station, the system eliminates the need to transfer or use the skyway at all.  So if we are adding up costs, we might as well add the $184 million dollars spent on the skyway to the overall cost of this bus rapid transit system.

METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: The JTA BRT meetings are a complete charade. Any serious questions regarding project cost, timeline, routes, and neighborhood integration are left completely unanswered. At this point, JTA has no plan other than to start haphazardly acquiring large pieces property throughout Jacksonville.
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METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: This will effectively remove large parcels, which include office parks and shopping centers, off of the tax rolls and into JTA's hands. The money designated for transit by the Better Jacksonville Plan will be used to land bank property, leaving Jacksonville with no transit improvements and less tax revenue.
Blight is another major concern with JTA's bus rapid transit proposal.  Several parts of the system will have to be elevated to cross existing rail lines and major highways.  This means in these areas, BRT will introduce skyway like infrastructure in many neighborhoods bordering the system, such as Avondale, Murray Hill, Arlington and the Northside.
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STAMFORD CT. LRT PLAN 2007: Malloy said he did not expect much land would be acquired for the project through eminent domain. It's likely that for stretches of the route, the electric car route could be integrated into the current road system, though the study would help determine whether that's feasible, he said.

ROBERT MANN 1981: Mann then offers an imposing list of cities in which planned LRTs are being built or planned. "Light-rail systems are presently being built in Buffalo, N.Y., and San Diego, Calif., and planned for Portland, Ore; San Jose, Calif.; Denver, Col.;; Baltimore, Md.; Dayton, Ohio; Sacramento, Calif.; and Vancouver, British Columbia.
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STAMFORD CT 2007: More than 20 U.S. cities, including Boston, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Baltimore, San Diego and Sacramento, have implemented some kind of light rail service.

STAMFORD CT. 2007:  But now many cities are bringing back electric streetcars, which could carry three times as many commuters as a typical bus and run at faster speeds if built with their own steel track right-of-way.
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ROBERT MANN 1981:  "LRT is electric and clean. It is better on labor than the bus systems since the higher-capacity cars can be linked into trains of up to four or five cars with a single driver. As for speed, which includes time at stations and stops, the average bus in the United States does little better than 11.5 mph while the light-rail vehicle in Buffalo will do 23 mph. LRT has a much higher ridership than the bus systems on a worldwide basis and the vehicles can be bought 'off the shelf.'

METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: So in conclusion, it's not as much about bus rapid transit versus rail as it is about taking advantage of things we already have in place.  Because three of the bus rapid transit corridors parallel rail lines, JTA also doesn't have to start from scratch.  The only thing that would change along the chosen corridors would be an upgrade from bus technology to rail.
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ROBERT MANN 1981: "In Jacksonville, there exist opportunities which exist in no other city: a spider web of tracks fanning out from Union Station to Southside, Ortega and Orange Park, Baldwin, northwest Jacksonville and Dinsmore, within a mile of the aiport, onto Blount Island, etc.

ROBERT MANN 1981: "Then tell yourself that it is already there save for the downtown mall and the trolley wire and it wouldn't have to compete with the automobile. Next tell yourself that San Diego built a 16 mile system for half the cost of our Four-mile DPM and used not one penny of federal money! Next ask: Who really runs things at the JTA?"
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METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: Despite the claims that railroad companies are hard to deal with, the plan still involves JTA having to purchase rail right of way to run bus lines near Philips Highway and Roosevelt Blvd.  Spending money on this right-of-way, plus constructing an expressway for buses will easily costs more than potentially negotiating with railroads to purchase or use portions of these double tracked rail lines for mass transit.  By constructing BRT next to existing rail lines, we will miss the opportunity to save millions by using what we already have in place, as well as the chance for a superior mode of transit.

JACKSONVILLE JTA 1981, 1990, 2007: We are doing a rail study
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STAMFORD CT. 2007:  The city hopes to have a contractor selected for the study before the year's end, Stamford Transportation Planner Joshua Lecar said. The study should take about six months.

It is not known how long construction and implementation would take after the study, but Malloy said it was important to get the groundwork done now.

STAMFORD CT. 2007: Malloy was optimistic that, eventually, the light rail link could be built because the city has had success with other long-term projects like the Mill River park, corridor redevelopment and the Urban Transitway - a mile-long road between the East Side and the train station, which broke ground last month.
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METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: Many local planners also believe that this bus rapid transit system will spur "Transit Oriented Development" throughout Jacksonville's neighborhoods.  Unfortunately, the history of BRT paints a different picture.  You can't have TOD without good "T".  It's well known that developers are less apt to invest millions in transit oriented development, if the transit system that development is constructed around can pick up and move on the drop of a dime.  BRT's "flexibility" is the primary reason it is an inferior mode of transit if part of your goal in creating a system is to encourage redevelopment along it's path.

METROJACKSONVILLE 2007: For years, JTA and their consultants have told the general public that their BRT concept is cheaper than all forms of rail.  Here's proof, from their own documents, that this is simply not true.
JTA's own BRT Technology Assessment Report, prepared by Parsons Brinckerhoff, clearly illustrates that there are various forms of rail that are well below the average price of Bus Rapid Transit using dedicated busways.
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STAMFORD CT. 2007:  More transit planners are turning to light rail as a traffic solution because it's less expensive than commuter rail and more desirable than some bus systems.

STAMFORD CT. 2007: 'Light rail has a greater carrying capacity than the bus . . . and when traveling on a fixed route, could move more rapidly,' Lapp said. And even with some buses using more environmentally friendly fuels, 'the fuel burned (by rapid transit) is cleaner.'
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JTA 2007:  It's just like rail only cheaper.

Ocklawaha