Re-evaluating the Skyway

[tufsu1]

^Even without commuter rail, if we had an Amtrak corridor service, you could park your car at the Avenues or Orange Park and take the train into downtown where you could then transfer to the Skyway.  Thus, why we have made enhanced Amtrak service a key priority in the establishment of rail transit in Jacksonville.

that assumes that there would be a stop at those places...OP seems likely, the Avenues does not

[thelakelander]

My motto is you never know if you don't push for it.  My bet is that the Southside/Northern St. Johns County has a higher population than places like Vero Beach, Palm Coast and Stuart.  In addition, the junction of Philips, I-95 and I-295 would be an accessible location for a significant number of local residents.

Speaking long distance intercity, currently South Florida already has over four stations, Polk County two, and metro Orlando four, while Jax has one isolated stop a good drive north of downtown.  As you know a corridor service is different from the operation Amtrak runs in Florida today and is more likely to be attractive towards everyday commuters.  If corridor service stops can be located at places shown in the images below, we should be able to make an argument for a few well placed satellite stations throughout the First Coast.

Amtrak Pacific Surfliner Corridor - Anaheim Stadium Station


Amtrak Pacific Surfliner Corridor - Burbank Airport Station


Amtrak Capitol Corridor - Oakland Coliseum Station


Amtrak Hiawatha Corridor - General Mitchell Airport Station (Milwaukee)

[stjr]

STJR, Please understand I would NEVER have built the damn thing to start with, big mistake, HUGE! But we have an investment in a Federal Demonstration project that the current administration would probably fund under one of the stimulus packages. I'd rather they spend it here then in Bull Frog Nevada. (a real place BTW) So I'm NOT a big fan of the Skyway but have come to love it like my love for my own Confederate Heritage... So get this y'all, not a fan of the Skyway, but a professional at making these type of things work.

Ock, I understand your point but I don't see it succeeding.  Also, I would rather take any available dollars and prioritize them for suburban rail, streetcars, and Amtrak connections than put them toward the $ky-high-way.  I know you think you can get ALL these things and, clearly, I don't.  Right now, not ONE of them is going to happen based on what we know so we are probably mostly arguing over pride.

For those "Other" venues we would have to do a revenue test, an experiment to see if a $5.00 parking garage entry + Skyway coupons would attract riders. It's not so much the parking for the Suns or Concerts, etc... as it is the time and hassle that we could sell. Frankly $5.00 or even $3.00 beats the hell out of .50 cents. Another case of do the math and estimate the ridership with pilot program shuttles (such as a street with cones to seal it off to all but JTA shuttle buses then run the buses like the Skyway to test the market... BRT style).

We are close on this point.  I don't see how $5 will pay for BOTH running the $ky-high-way roundtrip AND will provide a parking space somewhere near it when we can't run the much cheaper buses for less than $7.  I also see little numerical demand for such a service.  A study would be definitive but I suspect it will come nowhere close to justifying this as a basis for expanding the $ky-high-way.

The original traffic estimates started at 60,000 riders per day, and changed to 30,000, then 17,000, then 10,000, then 5,000, and finally we hit almost 4,000 REAL riders a day at .35 cents a trip. Then we nearly doubled the fare and POOF, back to 1,700 a day for a net loss of about 300 in both ridership and revenue. But those original estimates were for a completed system, something we never even got 50% of.

Sorry, Ock.  I think you are just wrong on this part.  The estimates you quote yourself ARE for the COMPLETE SYSTEM which is what NOW EXISTS.  These estimates didn't take into account any other additions.  If you were to expand the system, the estimates would need to be FAR FAR HIGHER than these!  With the EXPERTS OFF by OVER 95% last time around, I don't see how we could ever rely on such BACKFILLED projections in the future.  It will just set us up for an even bigger failure.

Expansion as I encourage will be 100% compatible with the current monorail system. The Cost estimates came from REAL vendors who know the system, and as we already OWN the right-of-ways, it is an easy build. Ever wonder why Riverside Avenue has that wide median? SKYWAY. Ever wonder why the new Bay Street plan has a huge walk on the South Side of the Street? SKYWAY. Also as Lakelander proposed, taking it lower or even to ground level in certain places would make it much cheaper to build, just remember NOTHING can cross it's path when it's on the ground.

Not addressed:  Do the cost estimates include related costs of traffic and other studies, environmental, relocation of utilities, right of way, demolition, building one or more new stations, etc. or just the direct costs of the new rail and supports?  Keep in mind, these projects seem to NEVER come in at anything close to projected costs used to obligate the taxpayers!  I am, again, not convinced by your INFORMAL and UNGUARANTEED estimates from a contractor looking for work.

I may be the eternal skeptic on the $ky-high-way, but I think history fully supports me and I see nothing going forward that will change that.

[Ocklawaha]

Inuyama Japan, ground level monorail station, how easy would this be to have a bus and/or rail platform on the other side?

Actually the Avenues Walk have space for a corridor station already within the plan. Amtrak, prefers the Cities to build and maintain the train stations as they do for the airlines. They will also introduce new stops in widely scattered urban area's such as ours. Remember in 60 odd miles around Orlando the trains stop at Deland, Sanford, Winter Park, Orlando, Kissimmee and there is a currently unused NEW station at Poinciana.

For Keith, the idea isn't to drive into the venue downtown but drive to the edge of downtown where one can avoid the frustration of sitting for 40 minutes on Bay Street or some other road. Ideally for the Skyway, we could head up the super-slab, exit and park, for a flat fee per car it would include our transportation to the stadium, ball park etc... As corridor rail comes on line, then it's park in Orange Park and ride downtown, transfer to the Skyway and exit at the venue.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

STJR, Please understand I would NEVER have built the damn thing to start with, big mistake, HUGE! But we have an investment in a Federal Demonstration project that the current administration would probably fund under one of the stimulus packages. I'd rather they spend it here then in Bull Frog Nevada. (a real place BTW) So I'm NOT a big fan of the Skyway but have come to love it like my love for my own Confederate Heritage... So get this y'all, not a fan of the Skyway, but a professional at making these type of things work.

Ock, I understand your point but I don't see it succeeding.  Also, I would rather take any available dollars and prioritize them for suburban rail, streetcars, and Amtrak connections than put them toward the $ky-high-way.  I know you think you can get ALL these things and, clearly, I don't.  Right now, not ONE of them is going to happen based on what we know so we are probably mostly arguing over pride.

Amtrak can easily happen with public support from this city and state.  They have a ton of federal money coming their way.  The same goes for using the BJP $100 million to fund a starter local rail line.  Unfortunately, our leaders have not fully accepted transit as being an important element to enhancing Jacksonville's quality of living.  Hopefully, this sentiment will change with the Mayor's visioning process.  Because what you put on those isolated riverfront sites don't mean a hill of beans if you can't find a way to connect them.

[Ocklawaha]

STJR, Please understand I would NEVER have built the damn thing to start with, big mistake, HUGE! But we have an investment in a Federal Demonstration project that the current administration would probably fund under one of the stimulus packages. I'd rather they spend it here then in Bull Frog Nevada. (a real place BTW) So I'm NOT a big fan of the Skyway but have come to love it like my love for my own Confederate Heritage... So get this y'all, not a fan of the Skyway, but a professional at making these type of things work.

Ock, I understand your point but I don't see it succeeding.  Also, I would rather take any available dollars and prioritize them for suburban rail, streetcars, and Amtrak connections than put them toward the $ky-high-way.  I know you think you can get ALL these things and, clearly, I don't.  Right now, not ONE of them is going to happen based on what we know so we are probably mostly arguing over pride.

I think we make a good team, you see I've been doing this for 29 years! I know some things that are just around the curve and I want us to move into a command position, now that Orlando is silenced, Miami kicked, and Tampa hobbled... Now it's our turn, my plans may take another 20 years, which I might have left, you see...("They killed me in Vietnam and I didn't even know...") LOL!

For those "Other" venues we would have to do a revenue test, an experiment to see if a $5.00 parking garage entry + Skyway coupons would attract riders. It's not so much the parking for the Suns or Concerts, etc... as it is the time and hassle that we could sell. Frankly $5.00 or even $3.00 beats the hell out of .50 cents. Another case of do the math and estimate the ridership with pilot program shuttles (such as a street with cones to seal it off to all but JTA shuttle buses then run the buses like the Skyway to test the market... BRT style).

We are close on this point.  I don't see how $5 will pay for BOTH running the $ky-high-way roundtrip AND will provide a parking space somewhere near it when we can't run the much cheaper buses for less than $7.  I also see little numerical demand for such a service.  A study would be definitive but I suspect it will come nowhere close to justifying this as a basis for expanding the $ky-high-way.

We would have to come up with creative marketing packages. Work with teams, concert promoters, the hotels, Landing, Amtrak etc... Another addition I'd like to see happen is Monorail "Conductors", uniformed men and women in the mold of the Jacksonville Ambassador program. Also a Monorail youth group based on the BSA - Rail Explorer Scouts.

The original traffic estimates started at 60,000 riders per day, and changed to 30,000, then 17,000, then 10,000, then 5,000, and finally we hit almost 4,000 REAL riders a day at .35 cents a trip. Then we nearly doubled the fare and POOF, back to 1,700 a day for a net loss of about 300 in both ridership and revenue. But those original estimates were for a completed system, something we never even got 50% of.

Sorry, Ock.  I think you are just wrong on this part.  The estimates you quote yourself ARE for the COMPLETE SYSTEM which is what NOW EXISTS.  These estimates didn't take into account any other additions.  If you were to expand the system, the estimates would need to be FAR FAR HIGHER than these!  With the EXPERTS OFF by OVER 95% last time around, I don't see how we could ever rely on such BACKFILLED projections in the future.  It will just set us up for an even bigger failure.

I believe we are both right and wrong here. I've got some of the original studies, reports even the bound plans. Looks like JTA was all over the board on this thing, but was it REALLY JTA? or was it UMTA feeding Godbold a bunch of sweet sounding crap. Some of the numbers show the entire 8 miles and others claim amazing numbers for the first 3,000 feet or so. Incredible.

Expansion as I encourage will be 100% compatible with the current monorail system. The Cost estimates came from REAL vendors who know the system, and as we already OWN the right-of-ways, it is an easy build. Ever wonder why Riverside Avenue has that wide median? SKYWAY. Ever wonder why the new Bay Street plan has a huge walk on the South Side of the Street? SKYWAY. Also as Lakelander proposed, taking it lower or even to ground level in certain places would make it much cheaper to build, just remember NOTHING can cross it's path when it's on the ground.

Not addressed:  Do the cost estimates include related costs of traffic and other studies, environmental, relocation of utilities, right of way, demolition, building one or more new stations, etc. or just the direct costs of the new rail and supports?  Keep in mind, these projects seem to NEVER come in at anything close to projected costs used to obligate the taxpayers!  I am, again, not convinced by your INFORMAL and UNGUARANTEED estimates from a contractor looking for work.

Certainly my estimates are for TRACK miles only. Stations should not be fully dumped on the tax payers but coop's with the corporations that benefit. There are several ways to skin this cat. For example, we could exempt any new office tower from parking space requirements in exchange for their station, employees or residents get a pass as part of the perks. For the most part the utilities are avoidable because the city has kept the Monorail zones fairly clean.


You may be the eternal skeptic on the Skyway, but you've met the eternal optimist my friend.

OCKLAWAHA

[mtraininjax]

Ever wonder why Riverside Avenue has that wide median? SKYWAY.

Not true, it was expanded for the I-95/Forest runoff to downtown. Check out Riverside south of forest, drastically smaller roadway.

[Charles Hunter]

I think our old hippie (Ock) mis-spoke, not so much the "median" in the middle of Riverside Ave. - between Forest and the Acosta Bridge - but the area on the west side of Riverside.  JTA and DOT bought and cleared the full first block, which gives plenty of room for a possible extension of the Skyway down to BCBS.

[mtraininjax]

JTA and DOT bought and cleared the full first block, which gives plenty of room for a possible extension of the Skyway down to BCBS.

Details, details....BCBSF is located at 532 Riverside Avenue. The building is bordered by Rosselle, May, Edison, and Riverside. Forest is a block over, so the poor BCBSF patrons who would ride the people mover would have to walk an additional block from the station, since Edison is not the same as Forest. The actual walk is closer to 2 blocks since the entrance to BCBSF is closest to Rosselle. Or an employee with a car and garage access could always drive and stay dry from the comfort of the parking deck. Tough call....

BCBSF does have a parking lot for all contractors located on Riverside, between Forest and Dora. Its about the same nice 2 block walk as well.

So if the people mover stops at Forest and Riverside, it dumps people out to have to walk 1, 2, 3 or more to their places of work. Should be fun selling BCBSF on sponsoring the people mover solution, when the company has to cut another 50 million dollars in employees this year.

[Charles Hunter]

I think DOT owns about half the block on the south side of Forest - at least it is fenced off, and I think it has signs saying it is a DOT lot.  Shouldn't cost that much more* to buy the building that sandwich shop is in - and now you're at Edison - and, being really creative, JTA could lease space in the station back to the sandwich shop.

Oh, and failing that, it is a short block between Edison and Forest, especially if the station were on the south side of Forest, or a covered elevated walkway were built over Forest (if the station stays north).

But your point about the tough economic times as not good for asking for corporate buy-in to new expenditures, is a good one.

* not that much more - we are talking about gov't spending here

[Ocklawaha]

Hey  guys, I was told by one of the Skyway bosses that the "median" was where the Right-of-Way's were located,  could it be the Skyway boss doesn't know? Oh well... At least the concept that we HAVE a right of way, ready to use is made public. It's there, like it or not, and it's clear sailing to complete these vital segments of the "Train to Nowhere". Let's get streetcar, commuter rail and a completed Skyway, certainly we won't be Disney in attractiveness, but we'll be hot on their tails with TOMORROW LAND Transit.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

The Skyway boss was wrong.  The land reserved is on the side facing Brooklyn.  However, there is no reason it could not go down the median if they really wanted to build it.

[Charles Hunter]

The Skyway boss was wrong.  The land reserved is on the side facing Brooklyn.  However, there is no reason it could not go down the median if they really wanted to build it.

Except the median is too narrow for either street car tracks or skyway supports.  They'd have to rebuild the entire road, moving half the road over into the area set aside for transit.  Makes more sense just to build the transit on the Brooklyn side of the street.

[thelakelander]

Isn't that median at least 12' wide?  That should be more than enough for support columns.  Anyway, I do agree that if someone were to expand it down Riverside Ave, use the ROW already set aside for it.

[mtraininjax]

There is no money or need for it, so why waste your time debating it? A bus trolley would be fine for now, if anyone would ride it. But the TU is about to go under, Haskell is not hiring, St. Joe ?, and BCBSF is getting ready to sell itself.

No need.