Springfield Trolley - going forward

[thelakelander]

Ock, we're going to have to successfully lobby the community to support such a resolution and make sure we have JTA's support, before moving forward with a request to council.  The worse thing that could happen is a bill is submitted for the change and JTA or the community objects to the switch.

We've done a decent job over the last few years in creating discussion, but if we want RAP, SPAR, DVI, etc. on board, we need to sell the idea to them first.  If we can get them and major corporate players to submit their own resolution letters of support to their council representatives, the argument to change the terminology becomes harder to ignore.

[Sigma]

Thanks for keeping us posted.  You and Ock have my support and look forward to helping you pursue doing this the right way.

[nvrenuf]

Personally as a Springfield resident I would love to see Ock's photoshop as a reality. I think many have become so frustrated and have just reached the point of "we'll take what we can get".

[zoo]

I very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.

However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.

Economic/tourism asset through a faux trolley?  Please explain so I can better understand your vision? A faux trolley does not create economic/tourism dollars. A sense of place built around a community's unique characteristics does. This is where the look of the vehicle can contribute to, not completely create (so don't try to put those words in my response, please), a sense of place.

The only reason anyone is excited about PCT's is because of how they look -- this matters to those who are invested AND live in the community. Is there an electric vehicle that will fit in the historic context of the community? If there isn't, I'll still come down on the side of PCT's, not because they bring superior technical function/service, not because it is the best vehicle for the neighborhood long-term (fixed rail streetcar, right?), not even for the chips, but because they FIT in this "place". And that is what Springfield is trying to become... a community with a fully-developed, and fully-supported, sense of place.

This statement in general raises a good question.  What is Springfield trying to become?  Is the things mentioned above your opinion or a general consensus of residents living in the neighborhood?  Like you, I'd really like to hear what other Springfield residents have to say on this issue.  Knowing what the community desires will help with the development and marketing of the final project. These are just my opinion, but are the result of studies.

You guys seem to think you are the only ones who ever had the idea to engage the community in a dialogue!?! There was a series of 3 focus groups conducted in 2006 (2 for residents, 1 for business owners, in which approximately 20 people of various ethnic, age, income, family structure and employment characteristics participated), for the purpose of qualitative analysis of factors of importance to, and the desires of, the community. They were not entirely about transit, but transit questions were included and discussed. The focus groups were followed by a benchmark quantitative survey in Fall of 2006 in which more than 350 hh participated, and a subsequent quantitative survey in 2007, in which approximately 200 hh participated to determine change against benchmark. The same effort was taken to ensure participation, but there were naysayers to the surveys who found them to be too intrusive or a pain in the ass to complete. So residents were asked, and whether or not they wanted to be heard was their choice. These results are projectable to number of hh in the District, and this is why participation in the surveys was stressed.

Sure, Lake and Ock, you know transit better than anyone on this board, but don't spout about personal opinions versus projectable data -- you are not the only persons on this board with useful background and training -- there are many others who live in the community, who are intelligent enough to listen, research, dialogue and draw their own intelligent conclusions.

As for investing and living in the community, personally, I don't live there (not because of peference, I'm just stuck with an unsalable Southside condo right now) but I am a property owner who has just as much money and time invested in the area as any typical person invested or living in Springfield.  If things work out in the future, I could also end up living on my property in Springfield.  Also, what happens on Main directly impacts the retail and living possibilities of my future spaces and my existing tenant.  Because of this, I'd say this is just as important to me as someone who may live in the neighborhood. I know you don't live here, and I suspect you'd make a different choice if economic conditions were different. However, having invested in commercial or rental residential property here, regardless of the value of the property, does not make you equally invested. Residents start their day here, end their day here, and in some cases spend their day here, and have to bear daily the foisted opinions of others who believe their opinions should be given equal weight. That is crap. Until you are beginning and ending your day here, raising your family here, walking your dogs in the park, driving less than one mile to your job or activities downtown because the transit options aren't good, and driving out of the community for services because they aren't here yet, your opinion does not carry as much weight as a resident's, knowledgeable about transit or not, as far as I'm concerned.

My next comments are not directed at Ock and Lake in a personal way. They are directed at the many other persons I encounter regularly in advocating for Springfield that think they have a right to determine what is best for the community, from social service providers, to Councilmembers, city/transit planners, to regional planning/architectural organizations and professional groups, to persons responsible for economic development in Jacksonville, and on, and on. Everyone has an opinion about what is best for Springfield.

Well, I live here, and work here, and am here every day for much of the day, and I am sick of people who don't live in this community foisting their opinions about what they think is best for it on those living here. I may not know what is best for it, so I'm happy to hear and entertain opinions, and do a fair amount of research and investigation on my own. But in the end, I and other Springfield residents have more of a right to an opinion than someone living in St. Johns county, or Southside, or the Beaches, or Tallullah, or San Jose.

See my answer above.  I'm just as invested in Springfield as the typical resident.  If this means getting involved in the planning and design process (my educational background), to make sure all pros and cons are properly evaluated then so be it.  After all, we all want something thats going to work as a final product, regardless of individual opinions on what that product should be. You can lend your professional knowledge and opinion, and I'm one resident who will listen. But in the end, the informed decision I make is mine to make whether it agrees with yours or not, and I believe the opinions of those who have to live daily with the planning decisions being made should have the greatest weight. Imo, it would be hypocritical for me not to participate in the discussion of something that can help the community when its an issue I specialize in for a living.  This is nothing personal, its just reality regardless of any individual's personal opinion.  Also, don't take what anyone says as the Bible.  Look it up, challenge it and provide examples of other options if there is something you may not agree with.  Back and forth dialouge is a typical process that all projects should go through in the planning stages.  Having community dialouge is a great thing that no one should get sick about. Please re-read my post if you need to. I didn't say I was sick of community dialogue. I have invited it in every bit of advocacy work I have done in Springfield. I find some choose not to give it, except on their own terms, and others will claim they weren't asked if the collective end result doesn't go their way. "I am sick of people who don't live in this community foisting their opinions about what they think is best for it on those living here." It helps ensure successful implementation of the final product. I presume you only believe it to be successful if your professional position is the one acted upon?

2. What is the ultimate goal? To move residents to downtown and to different ends of commercial areas; to move FCCJ, church and downtown workplace to new Springfield commercial; to move Proton Beam patients to and from their temporary housing to the Proton facility, and to move anyone else that wants to pay $.50 to get anywhere between the two end points for any reason, except to "sleep it off" in air conditioning. BTW, Ock, don't know if your low-floor issue is the result of the presumed Proton Beam focus, but the proton treatment means patients don't have special transportation accessibility, or dietary, needs.

Hopefully we can add existing business community and other Shands facilities to the mix. Consider them included in my commentary where I referenced "downtown workplace" and "anyone else that wants to pay $.50 to get anywhere between the two end points for any reason" -- I apologize if the phrasing I utilized with the most inclusive intent (definitely covering "existing business community") was not inferred that way. The more the merrier, in terms of transit ridership.  If other Shands facilities come into play, Ock's low-floor issue may be worth taking a deeper look into.

3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT?  If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes? More "green" options have been brought up here and there, but I don't know if they have been investigated recently. Though there is ridership support, but rarely financial support, I suspect one of the cons to electric may be cost -- perhaps JTA can verify this? Another con is stigma and placemaking conflict of just another bus.

This is something worth hashing out with further discussion.  Studying existing examples across the country may reveal some insight that we may all be overlooking. If you or Ock want to be the person to investigate green, low-floored, contextually-appropriate vehicles available for $350k or less on behalf of JTA, I say please do! I believe JTA should have this responsibility, but I find a lot of "we do it this way because this is the way it's always been done" in the municipal agencies here, so an independent effort may be just the needed thing.

4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned.  What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community? How about funding? If any of the SAMBA businesses truly believe they are going to see an increase in traffic, then contributing in public-private partnership to make it happen is an investment in future sales. If it's about buying marketing "eyeballs" that can be discussed, but not a single Springfield area business has made a penny commitment to this effort at this time.

To be honest, it may be too early in the game to ask or expect funding from the existing business community on conceptual idea not fully hatched out.  Most of our small businesses are struggling to stay afloat and SAMBA is an organization with limited resources and manpower at the moment.  However, as a plan becomes better organized and promoted, if business owners can see a financial benefit for them in the product, anything is possible.  No kidding re: SAMBA businesses funding. There may still be opportunities for them to help promote ridership, with coupons or other promos, when the route is running. Re: anything is possible, you've answered my fairy dust wish for optimism. A good example of this is in Detroit, where the business community is funding a +3 mile starter light rail line 100% between Downtown and New Center.  With local cooperation the 8-20 years for rail, fsujax mentioned earlier in this thread, just got slashed to 2 or 3 because they don't immediately need FTA funding.  A little creativity and dialouge in this process could result in better transit (both bus and rail) becoming a quicker reality in Jax as well.

Residents, speak up!!!

I agree.  Anyone else should speak up too.  Springfield can't isolate itself from the rest of the community and expect to support things like this on its own.  If you work in DT, Shands, own property, a business in the area, purchase goods or use services in the area, bike, ride mass transit or whatever, all dialouge should be considered as valuable during the planning process. All dialogue is valuable and good ideas come from anywhere, but that doesn't mean it will all get implemented. In the end a decision will be made, and it is my hope the opinions of persons who will have to live with it, and will use it daily, will have the greatest weight.

[zoo]

Personally as a Springfield resident I would love to see Ock's photoshop as a reality.

Ditto.

I think many have become so frustrated and have just reached the point of "we'll take what we can get".

I am frustrated, true. I don't understand why there can't be a short-term AND longer-term solution to the issue of appropriate transit on Main? Money not from the same budgets, and why is replacing/modifying some existing bus transit with a contextually-appropriate vehicle a problem? Ock obviously feels his corn flakes are being crapped in if it's not a historically-accurate vehicle, which I'm sure some folks in Springfield can identify with. Sorry, but I don't have a problem with this when it comes to transit vehicles.

My frustration has not resulted in "we'll take what we can get," but rather, "have my chips and eat them too."

[thelakelander]

I very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.

However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.

Economic/tourism asset through a faux trolley?  Please explain so I can better understand your vision? A faux trolley does not create economic/tourism dollars. A sense of place built around a community's unique characteristics does. This is where the look of the vehicle can contribute to, not completely create (so don't try to put those words in my response, please), a sense of place.

I'm not trying to place words in your mouth.  I'm just trying to understand your vision.  Now I see you believe a faux trolley can help contribute to a "sense of place" in a historic community.  Looking at them running through downtown I don't personally agree, but to each his/her own.  There's nothing wrong with that.

You guys seem to think you are the only ones who ever had the idea to engage the community in a dialogue!?!

Not true, now you're trying to place words and labels on us.

There was a series of 3 focus groups conducted in 2006 (2 for residents, 1 for business owners, in which approximately 20 people of various ethnic, age, income, family structure and employment characteristics participated), for the purpose of qualitative analysis of factors of importance to, and the desires of, the community. They were not entirely about transit, but transit questions were included and discussed. The focus groups were followed by a benchmark quantitative survey in Fall of 2006 in which more than 350 hh participated, and a subsequent quantitative survey in 2007, in which approximately 200 hh participated to determine change against benchmark. The same effort was taken to ensure participation, but there were naysayers to the surveys who found them to be too intrusive or a pain in the ass to complete. So residents were asked, and whether or not they wanted to be heard was their choice. These results are projectable to number of hh in the District, and this is why participation in the surveys was stressed.

Can you post a link of the conclusions?  Thanks.

Sure, Lake and Ock, you know transit better than anyone on this board, but don't spout about personal opinions versus projectable data -- you are not the only persons on this board with useful background and training -- there are many others who live in the community, who are intelligent enough to listen, research, dialogue and draw their own intelligent conclusions.[/color]

I think we can all see that we are not the only people on this site with background or training.  The three of us (you included) just happen to be pretty vocal in this thread.  Like you, I hope more chime in on this topic.

As for investing and living in the community, personally, I don't live there (not because of peference, I'm just stuck with an unsalable Southside condo right now) but I am a property owner who has just as much money and time invested in the area as any typical person invested or living in Springfield.  If things work out in the future, I could also end up living on my property in Springfield.  Also, what happens on Main directly impacts the retail and living possibilities of my future spaces and my existing tenant.  Because of this, I'd say this is just as important to me as someone who may live in the neighborhood.

I know you don't live here, and I suspect you'd make a different choice if economic conditions were different. However, having invested in commercial or rental residential property here, regardless of the value of the property, does not make you equally invested. Residents start their day here, end their day here, and in some cases spend their day here, and have to bear daily the foisted opinions of others who believe their opinions should be given equal weight. That is crap. Until you are beginning and ending your day here, raising your family here, walking your dogs in the park, driving less than one mile to your job or activities downtown because the transit options aren't good, and driving out of the community for services because they aren't here yet, your opinion does not carry as much weight as a resident's, knowledgeable about transit or not, as far as I'm concerned.

Unless only residents living within the historic district's borders are going to pony their own cash to pay for this 100%, then everyone's opinion should carry some weight.  If anything, the most weight should be carried by the end points (ie. Shands and DT).  The ability to be attractive to the users of these destinations (most who happen to live outside of the neighborhood) will play a heavier role on the ultimate success of the selected transit corridor.

[/color] It helps ensure successful implementation of the final product. I presume you only believe it to be successful if your professional position is the one acted upon?

You have assumed wrong.  For example, I was not a strong streetcar advocate early on.  For me it was commuter rail or bust, as far as transit improvements in Jax go.  Now after continuous dialouge with many people here, in the community, JTA and political realities, my position has changed.  You may not believe it, but I'm pretty open minded when real life factual examples can be presented.

3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT?  If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes? More "green" options have been brought up here and there, but I don't know if they have been investigated recently. Though there is ridership support, but rarely financial support, I suspect one of the cons to electric may be cost -- perhaps JTA can verify this? Another con is stigma and placemaking conflict of just another bus.

This is something worth hashing out with further discussion.  Studying existing examples across the country may reveal some insight that we may all be overlooking. If you or Ock want to be the person to investigate green, low-floored, contextually-appropriate vehicles available for $350k or less on behalf of JTA, I say please do! I believe JTA should have this responsibility, but I find a lot of "we do it this way because this is the way it's always been done" in the municipal agencies here, so an independent effort may be just the needed thing.

Considering this whole things is still conceptual in nature, that will probably happen if it hasn't already.

4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned.  What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community? How about funding? If any of the SAMBA businesses truly believe they are going to see an increase in traffic, then contributing in public-private partnership to make it happen is an investment in future sales. If it's about buying marketing "eyeballs" that can be discussed, but not a single Springfield area business has made a penny commitment to this effort at this time.

To be honest, it may be too early in the game to ask or expect funding from the existing business community on conceptual idea not fully hatched out.  Most of our small businesses are struggling to stay afloat and SAMBA is an organization with limited resources and manpower at the moment.  However, as a plan becomes better organized and promoted, if business owners can see a financial benefit for them in the product, anything is possible.  No kidding re: SAMBA businesses funding. There may still be opportunities for them to help promote ridership, with coupons or other promos, when the route is running. Re: anything is possible, you've answered my fairy dust wish for optimism.

True.  This is something that could happen when things get farther along. 

All dialogue is valuable and good ideas come from anywhere, but that doesn't mean it will all get implemented. In the end a decision will be made, and it is my hope the opinions of persons who will have to live with it, and will use it daily, will have the greatest weight.

That's my hope to as long as reality is accepted.  Because reality doesn't care where anyone lives, works or play.  It sounds like DT and Shands users need to get involved a little more.  They are going to be critical.

[strider]

I’m one of those people some are saying do not have Springfield’s best interests at heart because I: 1) Have a business type “they” do not like , 2) No longer live inside of Historic Springfield proper and 3) Recognize that currently, Historic Springfield is still an low income community.  Of course, we have invested heavily in Historic SPringfield because we lived there for a good number of years.  We spend the majority of our work days there.  But that isn’t good enough for some to accept that we have the right to be here and a right to a voice and a right to be heard.

Some have implied that most of the residents of Springfield do not care and therefore do not enter these discussions.  With some, they are right.  Many, though,  just don’t bother because they have learned the their voice will mostly be ignored by groups like SPAR Council and many really do not get the notices and do not realize that they could have a voice.

All that said, this discussion should be about the pros and cons of the faux trolley, not whether anyone has the right to speak out about it.

In this case, I have to go back to what has been told to me before:  faux trolleys only work when there are good, solid, existing destinations in place already.  So, it makes perfect sense that it works for the bar hopping group at the beaches.  It makes sense that it will work for the lunch crowd downtown to Riverside.  It doesn’t seem to make sense for Springfield. 

The “destinations” are existing, but can’t they be better served by the existing bus routes and buses?  How much is the faux trolley look worth?  Does it increase rider-ship at all in anyway?  Is the purpose for a faux trolley to get those who may not otherwise ride a bus to feel better about riding this faux trolley, AKA small bus?  Or is the purpose of this exercise to “segregate” the rider-ship…the "poor" on the regular bus, the “better off” on the faux trolley? Is it just to make the possible patients going from the Proton Institute to 3rd and Main feel better and safer?  Is the money better spent in other ways, IE: the low floor, environmentally friendly buses?

The problem here is that the only thing I see that can be promoted as a benefit with the faux trolley is that is looks marginally better than a regular bus.  I can see no  other positive.  The extra cost doesn’t seem to be worth it.  Now, here’s a question.  What benefit does JTA get from this?  Is the only way to get a dedicated line from the Landing, to 3rd and Main and then onto Shand’s is to do this faux trolley thing? If so, why?  Will the money still be there to do this some other way?  For, if this is the only way to get this route, then perhaps it is a good idea after all.  Though I still worry somewhat that if it fails, it will somehow count against us in trying to get the real streetcar that will enable Springfield to grow even more.