Springfield Trolley - going forward

[thelakelander]

Yes, it is time we start running through our older articles again.  Those that have been with us since the early days understand the difference, but newcomers may not 100%.

[fsujax]

Maybe we can get back to the basics of the site....rather than politics and bashing First Baptist...that would be a good thing.

[Springfield Girl]

I'm on the SPAR board and we might have talked about the trolley busses at one meeting when Lakelander came to speak. SPAR, as far as I know is not trying to push this and I don't think most people in Springfield even know about the busses. I think most people don't care one way or another. Personally I couldn't care less if I ever saw another bus of any kind. Ock I feel your pain as I have fought other issues in this city to no avail. I'm to the point now that I don't want to waste another minute trying to reach people who just don't and won't get it.

[fsujax]

Well, I think JTA would be doing some public outreach before any service is started. If there is a big cry from the community that you do not want the trolley's then I am sure JTA will not force them on the neighborhood. Then we can wait 8-20 years for a streetcar.

[thelakelander]

As I said on the SPAR forum last week, ultimately, the PCT vs. rail argument should not matter.  They are two completely different animals.  We should be able to push for better bus (I include the PCT in this category) service and the implementation of rail, as short and long term options for the urban core.  If we can get creative with resources already in hand, we should be able enjoy both in less than five years. 

[Ocklawaha]

I'm on the SPAR board and we might have talked about the trolley busses at one meeting when Lakelander came to speak. SPAR, as far as I know is not trying to push this and I don't think most people in Springfield even know about the busses. I think most people don't care one way or another. Personally I couldn't care less if I ever saw another bus of any kind. Ock I feel your pain as I have fought other issues in this city to no avail. I'm to the point now that I don't want to waste another minute trying to reach people who just don't and won't get it.

Thanks my friend. I think even Jaxons get the difference once it's explained, or to quote the evil SARRIS from GALAXY QUEST... "Explain it as you would to a child..." It's an uphill battle because the stupid trucks are branded as "Trolleys" and sold as such. Someone should challenge the deception in a Court of Law. I've been a Jaxson a lot longer then you have my Hip friend, and truly understand your words - but don't you think it's more of a monster of our own choosing? POLITICS? ...and the dummy's that run this place with OUR VOTES!

To those who don't understand what we are discussing let me try to explain the difference, but you'll have to play along, so put on the old thinking cap.

EXAMPLE: You are flying down I-95 on an excursion, no particular destination in mind but a few places you want to see. No timetable, vacation, camera and a pocket full of fun money... Are ya with me? As you crest a hill North of Jacksonville, you see a huge digital sign, today only, The WHOLE Jaguar team is here, get you photo today, this is a don't miss event at Che's Citgo, NEXT EXIT.  (If you don't like the Jags, put your favorite sports team there). Your heart rate climbs, you check the camera and pull off at Che's. All across the front of the little Citgo Station are cardboard cutouts that only Look something like your team... They didn't even get the uniforms right! Do you stop? Will you visit? How much is Che going to make off of you? NOT! In fact you'll probably not fill up the tank, you'll pull across the street because Che might be selling watered down gas! It's a LIE! Deception! It insults your intelligence, and in just a moment your hopping mad that you were so easily fooled.

Another Example: You finally hit the big time in the Florida Lottery, MILLIONS of bucks. You decide to go out and buy a private Jet, a private railway car, and a Rolls Royce. A broker makes the perfect deal for you, only to find out your Jet is a 1946 Taylor Craft, You bought a railroad Tank Car, and your Rolls is a Chevy with a hell of a lot of paper mache.

Don't offer me a ride for a buck or even free and tell me it's on a Trolley, when I can plainly see you are deceiving me. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Well, I think JTA would be doing some public outreach before any service is started. If there is a big cry from the community that you do not want the trolley's then I am sure JTA will not force them on the neighborhood. Then we can wait 8-20 years for a streetcar.

FACT: FSU, I would really love to be in charge of the "TROLLEYS" in our city. (MR. BLAYLOCK ARE YOU WATHCING? DAMN! I'LL DO IT FOR FREE). As soon as their useful life is up, or in the event we could sell them, We would introduce a TRUE shuttle bus with low floors that would be ideal for wheel chairs or beach bums.

As for the streetcar, if we have to wait 8-20 years we are certified BRAIN DEAD, and will remain a 2ND tier or even 3RD forever. The inability to keep the populace mobile through good times or bad is a key ingredient of a first rate city. We cannot allow this Streetcar project to be stillborn when we are sitting on $100 Million of our own money for Mass Transit.
A vintage Streetcar line from 5 Points to Jacksonville Terminal to Water Street to the Hyatt to the stadium would glow here like a string of pearls.

OCKLAWAHA

[thekillingwax]

I don't think most people really care if it's a truck or a "genuine" trolley. People aren't going to want to pile into springfield and downtown to go sightseeing via rail. I know I could go without either in the area because bus service is already plenty regular. I used to ride the phoenix all the time and the only time it was delayed was for wheelchair users. It's already annoying enough to be stuck behind a bus on those patches of 8th that are blocked with medians.

[Ocklawaha]

YEP! People do care. This is opening day for a new section of the rebuilding New Orleans system.

I don't think most people really care if it's a truck or a "genuine" trolley. People aren't going to want to pile into springfield and downtown to go sightseeing via rail.

Sorry but national numbers from the Federal Transit Administration, USDOT or National Transit Database say that you are incorrect. People LOVE Streetcars everywhere they go. In addition every city that has installed streetcar has experienced a building boom that AVERAGES $1,200 dollars of new development for every dollar invested.

Ridership on streetcars is typically 2 - 3 times the BEST ridership of any given bus route. Buses cost about .80 cents per passenger mile to operate and streetcars are exactly half of that at .40 cents PPM.

I know I could go without either in the area because bus service is already plenty regular.

JTA buses operate on a typical 30 / 45 or Hourly headway, which is so poor that most large transit agency's or planners don't even consider it "Service" rather it is more of a "basic accommodation." If we install streetcars because of it's long term economy's, an old slogan could be revived: "Always a Car In Sight."

I used to ride the phoenix all the time and the only time it was delayed was for wheelchair users. It's already annoying enough to be stuck behind a bus on those patches of 8Th that are blocked with medians.

The original "Phoenix" was a streetcar on the Jacksonville Traction Company lines. It was so successful  that it continued long after the demise of the tracks. Ridership tanked when JTCO and other companies like them were bought out and converted to buses.

As for Handicap Access and Median Delays? Handicap access is required by law and this new JTA route is apparently being planned to connect a hospital with patient housing and downtown connections. Medians, really have nothing to do with streetcars, however they CAN and I think probably should operate in grass medians. Being more flexible, the streetcars can also mix in with vehicles on the road, or follow an old railroad track across town. 


OCKLAWAHA

[samiam]

Ocklawaha
What do you think about running tracks down Hubbard do to the traffic on main.

[Ocklawaha]

Ocklawaha
What do you think about running tracks down Hubbard do to the traffic on main.

Hello Samiam, we've even toyed with that idea here at MJ, Lakelander, Lunican and Stephendare even put it on a few maps. The general feeling was it would never pass review with the neighbors along the street. Streetcars are no louder then the Skyway, with an occasional low volume wheel or rail screech.

We finally concluded that the City could take it right down the middle of the grassy medians they just put in. Rather then trash all the work they have just done, we would probably use about 80-90%. I see some curb cuts, and trees being exchanged for grass, palms, shrubs and trolley poles. Since streetcars are double sided (entry's on both sides) it would be a snap to have a single track line with a passing track at each stop. If the cars always stay to the right, the track to the left goes to the oncoming car. A second after it pulls out, the LEFT HAND doors open and the passenger alights on a paved platform with a now empty railroad track running through it. Passenger safe, streetcar safe, and most of the median unharmed. Plus we get a little of our own history back.

OCKLAWAHA

[mtraininjax]

So the long running goal for a rail trolley system is to bring back the history. What about the history you will destroy to put down rails? Is SPAR looking for the same historic designation that the RAP folks enjoy? Why not tear up Edgewood Avenue, or St. Johns Avenue and do more damage than the City Public works have already done to St. Johns Avenue near the new S-curve? Perhaps we should lay down some new rails before we have the Avondale shoppes renovation begin in 2010?

Tear out the new angled parking in Murray Hill and replace it with a rail line. Tear out the improvements at King and Park, put in rail. Tear out the improvements made with Park street at 5-points, remove all that parking for the rail trolleys. We need that history in the neighborhood, progress be darned!

Where was all the chest thumping when the City tore up Hendricks Avenue to find the old timbers paved over? Were there rails in there as well? Had someone forgot to check before enacting progress downtown? Who is up for new rails placed in San Marco, all for the sake of History. Sorry Mr. Lion, we have to move you, because you sit in the middle of our rail path down Atlantic Blvd. Tear out the trees that line the medians, and forsake traffic that chokes along San Marco, for a rail line, when a POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEY will do just fine, take up less room, and it is actually funded by the gasoline we all purchase every day.

Forget the fact that the City has no plans, no money, no desire for rail trolleys, but they have spent their funds and resources on the POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEY Line, and this apparently does not sit well with the history buffs who believe that History shall rule the day, yet again, budgets be darned, lies be cast, they are right and every elected official who had hard choices to make about public transportation is wrong.

At least with the POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEYS we have a chance to turn them into CNG or NG units. Maybe not today, but that day will come sooner rather than later. We can keep the trees, our progress, and our funding sources for public transportation, without sacrificing the progress that has been made in the urban parts of the city.

Just come and try and tear out the trees along Edgewood, I dare you!

[JeffreyS]

For me it is not about history it is the fact that fixed rail (I like heritage streetcar) spurs economic development, enhances quality of life and represents the type of investment in your community shows you value where you live.

[Ocklawaha]

Jacksonville Traction Company, S&W Turtleback Car on the Riverside Line, and NOTE it's NOT on a street, most of our system used side of the road, railroad or median running.

ROFLMAO! Man you should get your own TV show or talk radio program and do a comedy hour! Your good.

So the long running goal for a rail trolley system is to bring back the history. What about the history you will destroy to put down rails? Is SPAR looking for the same historic designation that the RAP folks enjoy? Why not tear up Edgewood Avenue, or St. Johns Avenue and do more damage than the City Public works have already done to St. Johns Avenue near the new S-curve? Perhaps we should lay down some new rails before we have the Avondale shoppes renovation begin in 2010?

Uh? Earth to MTraininJax, The "S" curves on St. Johns and Avondale NEVER had streetcar tracks on them. The line to Ortega went down Oak to King to St. Johns to Aberdeen to Herschel to Grand to Baltic.

Tear out the new angled parking in Murray Hill and replace it with a rail line. Tear out the improvements at King and Park, put in rail. Tear out the improvements made with Park street at 5-points, remove all that parking for the rail trolleys. We need that history in the neighborhood, progress be darned!

The Edgewood/Murray Hill Line used the wide right-of-way west of the CSX tracks (in the grass) from College to Edgewood (where it ended). So rebuild the original and we don't tear up a single historic or progressive new thing. NOTE: I also believe the original quote you were looking for was not "Progress be darned!" rather "The Public be Damned!" This was spoken by the President of the New York Central Railroad, Comodore Vanderbilt, upon receiving the bill for his new passenger trains.

Where was all the chest thumping when the City tore up Hendricks Avenue to find the old timbers paved over? Were there rails in there as well? Had someone forgot to check before enacting progress downtown? Who is up for new rails placed in San Marco, all for the sake of History. Sorry Mr. Lion, we have to move you, because you sit in the middle of our rail path down Atlantic Blvd. Tear out the trees that line the medians, and forsake traffic that chokes along San Marco, for a rail line, when a POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEY will do just fine, take up less room, and it is actually funded by the gasoline we all purchase every day.

Sorry again MTraininJax, but South Jacksonville had it's own streetcars on 3 routes. The South Jacksonville Municipal Railways. Starting at the center of the Acosta Bridge, the line went to Prudential to Hendricks to Atlantic. Atlantic had it's own line from San Marco Village to Saint Nicholas at Kings Road. San Jose had an extension that was side of the road South beyond where it splits with Hendricks and all the way to where it rejoins Hendricks, at this point it made a short circle on a balloon track. No one has proposed putting the Cars back in San Marco or South Jacksonville because of the railroad crossings. However the Skyway is already positioned to move south to the FEC then follow the railroad right-of-way to Atlantic. There might have been rails in Hendricks, a good deal of them are still around town but it's spotty as the "Motor Transit Company" wanted them gone, a franchise requirement was made that they be removed (in 1932) and the last cars ran in Dec. 1936. WWII scrap drives probably claimed most of the easy to find rails, though there were still a good many visible in the late 1950's and early 60's, mostly around Edison and the new BIG I interchange. So no worries for San Marco.

Forget the fact that the City has no plans, no money, no desire for rail trolleys, but they have spent their funds and resources on the POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEY Line, and this apparently does not sit well with the history buffs who believe that History shall rule the day, yet again, budgets be darned, lies be cast, they are right and every elected official who had hard choices to make about public transportation is wrong.

Wrong? REALLY? I'm only singing your tune on the PCT Trolleys. WHY DID WE SPEND A MINT ON THESE STUPID LOOKING THINGS WHEN A CHEAPER AND PURPOSE BUILT SHUTTLE BUS WAS AVAILABLE OFF THE SHELF. Add to that the delusional "TROLLEY" concept and it's a pretty petty operation. Also, this history buff is a professional railroad transit guy so I think my telling some politician he or she is wrong is my duty as a good citizen.

At least with the POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEYS we have a chance to turn them into CNG or NG units. Maybe not today, but that day will come sooner rather than later. We can keep the trees, our progress, and our funding sources for public transportation, without sacrificing the progress that has been made in the urban parts of the city.

Again, a streetcar could be powered with CNG, LNG, Methane, hydro-power, wind power, battery power, hydrogen power, induction power or just plain old diesel gen sets running off of "GATE DIESEL FUEL".

Just come and try and tear out the trees along Edgewood, I dare you!

The trees are there MTraininJax because the streetcars NEVER used more then 100' of Edgewood, and that was a simple platform in the middle of the Murray Hill shopping area. The Murray Hill line ran from Bay to Myrtle to Edison to Dellwood to Stockton? to College to private right-of-way and ended at Edgewood.

OCKLAWAHA

[zoo]

Ock, you're a bit late to this thread, and I do hope someone goes back to the old threads and can find where the claim was made that PCTs or busses will bring economic growth to Springfield.

I know JTA made the mistake of claiming BRT would bring economic development along its routes (and may still be making this claim for all I know). But I don't think anyone from Springfield, SPAR, or SAMBA has indicated PCT or busses will bring any assured amount of economic development, or made a comparison with the economic development probable around fixed transit. If someone can find these claims in earlier posts/threads, then your point is made (again). If not, how about the maligning of these groups for positions not taken stop?

In my reading of this thread, the discussion is not "Which will spur more economic growth, PCT or fixed rail?" as this has been settled. It's not even which is "better" as I believe most in Springfield - yes, even including the folks at orgs you mention (Springfield Girl and Lakelander, for example) - agree the ultimate solution would be fixed.

So it seems there is no real argument at all, other than the all or nothing one. Do Springfielders want nothing for the next 5-8 years while waiting for JTA to get its streetcar act together (under pressure from Ock and others at metrojacksonville.com - thank you!), or do Springfielders want a less-stigmatized, more community-compatible way to connect with downtown in the shorter-term, and still hope to get streetcar someday?

I'm for the cake-and-eat-it-too option, or if they go with the Lay's design, the chips-and-eat-it-too...

[thelakelander]

The economic development comparison issue, between the two, was raised at the SPAR Board meeting I spoke at back in late January.  The threads on this site and on SPAR's forum are a direct result of that discussion from people in attendance that night.  At that meeting a question and argument was made attempting to directly compare the two, in terms of cost, timeline and benefits to Springfield's commercial corridor (3rd & Main specifically).

The "all or nothing" stance may be one of the largest reasons this debate keeps popping up.  Its sort of like JTA calling what should be regular bus service through the Northside, "BRT", and wondering why people get upset at their plans.  Public relations and how transit improvements are presented and sold the the community may be the reason for continued opposition on projects like this. Proponents need to repackage how these improvements are presented to the community.

This Springfield PCT thing should be looked at, as improving already running existing bus service in the area.  Because at the end of the day, that's what it really is.  The plan basically creates a bus line that runs directly from Shands to DT.  However, instead of using a regular bus or an electric bus, the chosen rubber wheeled mode is a PCT. 

If I were to select a vehicle for this route, I'd shoot for an electric shuttle bus (see image below) because PCTs blow just as much dust and diesel exhaust on the pedestrian as the regular JTA buses (excluding the new ones) do.  If we want something to be compatible with a walkable environment along our commercial corridors, going electric or hybrid/electric would be worth considering.  I don't know how much they cost vs. the PCT, but quite a few transit agencies across the country are purchasing them with federal stimulus dollars.  Perhaps there may be an opportunity for JTA to do the same?

Anyway, the "all or nothing" or "PCT now or wait 20 years for real streetcar" are comparison arguments between two modes of transit that have nothing to do with each other in terms of goals, investment, image or generating ridership.  Jacksonville is a very transit ignorant community.  Terms mentioned above can do us all harm by continuing to cloud the differences between modes that should all play a role in the creation of an integrated regional mass transit system.  So my advice, which is an opinion just like everyone else's here, would be to repackage the way the PCT plan is being sold and advocated to the community.  Because there are benefits to enhancing bus service between major urban core destinations, neighborhoods and commercial corridors.  Unfortunately, that discussion is not taking place like it should, because the comparison between the PCT and fixed rail keep popping up.

Downtown Chattanooga Electric Shuttle


Downtown Chattanooga Electric Shuttle bus typical stop


Anyway, I have a few more questions about this plan that should help get the discussion back on track.

1. Where will the stops be located?

2. What is the ultimate goal?

3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT?  If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes?

4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned.  What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community?

5. Will this system rely only on Springfield, DT and Shands for ridership?  Or will it be integrated with other bus lines to ensure decent ridership numbers?

6. Will this be a temporary demonstration project or something set up to stay long term?