$ky-high-way POLL: Pick it's fate (or your poison)!

[thelakelander]

I never said the concept "works".  I said I could see ridership increasing as much as 10x if it had regional rail feeding riders into it, along with short expansions to major destination points.  I'm certainly not the guy to argue peoplemover systems over forms of rail like streetcars, light and commuter rail.  For the money spent to construct the skyway, we could have had light rail from DT to the airport for the same cost/mile.

[thelakelander]

Lake, there is plenty of parking in the sports area for Metro Park, the Arena, and the Baseball Grounds.  That just leaves the Jags.  We are talking 10 games a year if they sell out.  Add Fla-Ga, the Gator Bowl, and a couple of exhibition or other stadium events.  At best, 20 days of the year.

Assuming regional rail was in place, many traveling from areas like Clay, St. Johns and the Southside would elect to take a train into the area to avoid congestion.  Also, with rail, it would also be quite possible for the city to sell off most of this under utilized land for transit oriented development.  In addition to this, a line down Bay would also attract those accessing the Hyatt, the entertainment district, Florida Theater, Berkman, the existing courthouse site, the Shipyards, Maxwell Coffee, the police department and the jail.  While the last stop may not be a popular everyday destination, the rest of the line would serve a decent number of existing destinations in the Northbank.  Again I'm not saying immediate expansion is the way to go, because I can also make an argument for extending a streetcar line into the area.  However, I can see the benefit of an extension if regional rail is in place to feed riders into the system.

For this, we would build the $ky-high-way?  Really?  Sell that to the taxpayers after all the gifts we gave building the stadium and enhancing it.  Also, how many people per hour can the $ky-high-way move to the stadium working its little heart out?  Would that make a dent in the traffic to move?

From what I know, it is designed for additional cars, plus its double tracked.  If ridership increases, adding more cars would seem to be a good move.  As for selling it, if you have a regional system that connects DT with the burbs, but misses the stadium by a mile, it would probably sell itself in the long run.

As to interconnectivity, why don't we see the building of other links before considering expanding the $ky-high-way?  I don't believe those links are arriving anytime soon so the "expanded" system you advocate could be sitting for a very long time waiting for that undelivered traffic.  That's just more unproductive investments and deeper operating losses.

I don't know why I keep getting painted as someone who wants to expand the skyway hell or high water. I've always been in favor of adding Amtrak, streetcar and commuter corridors first, before seriously worrying about expanding the skyway's length. 

Again, I think proponents are really stretching to justify expansions in any direction.[/b]

I don't think I'm stretching in believing that ridership would increase if it were properly integrated into a regional transit plan that feeds it with riders.

[stjr]

I never said the concept "works".  I said I could see ridership increasing as much as 10x if it had regional rail feeding riders into it, along with short expansions to major destination points.  I'm certainly not the guy to argue peoplemover systems over forms of rail like streetcars, light and commuter rail.  For the money spent to construct the skyway, we could have had light rail from DT to the airport for the same cost/mile.

Lake, if the $ky-high-way concept doesn't "work", then why waste time talking expanding it?  Likewise, if, as we both agree, for the money spent, other forms of rail are superior, why don't we focus on prioritizing these and avoiding the $ky-high-way as an unnecessary distraction?   I know I am coming full circle here but my point is to show that all "roads" [rails?] lead back to this same point!  This is where I say we should proceed forward from.

[thelakelander]

I talk about it because you guys keep bringing it up.  However, if you look in our transit section, you will see that 99% of the transit articles I've written, focus on commuter rail, streetcars and Amtrak.  The major difference in opinion we have is that you're ready to label it a complete failure and abandon it.  On the other hand, I'd like to see what happens with it, after additional rail corridors (streetcars, a commuter rail line or two, etc.) are added into the mix.  My hunch is that ridership will improve and that it will become an integral part of the transit mix.

[Charles Hunter]

I think the real benefit of a Sports Complex leg is during the week to use all that parking for people working downtown.  It would allow using the massive acreage downtown devoted to surface parking to office/retail uses - which in turn would generate more demand.  Of course, in today's economy, that isn't going to happen soon - but the economy will turn around.

[stjr]

Only expand it if it comes after all other rail mass transit including street cars, light rail, and suburban rail.

The above is the current leader in our "poll".  If you have an opinion, feel free to cast your vote.  Just go to the beginning of this thread.

Question:  In what year does anyone think "all other rail mass transit" might be at a point to support the expansion proponents' desire for a sufficiently connected system?

[JaxNole]

I take it the poll creator has serious issues with the Skyway.

[stjr]

I take it the poll creator has serious issues with the Skyway.

How'd ya' guess?!!    Now, did you "pick your poison" and vote?

[JaxNole]

These data were reported from an earlier post:
7 Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (or "T")*
Boston
485,800[2]
2008 Q4
65.5[11]
1897

From the MBTA's website http://mbta.com/uploadedFiles/About_the_T/Financials/FY2008%20MBTA%20Audited%20Financials.pdf> Investor Relations > Audited Financial Statements 2008, this successful mass transit authority reports the following figures:

Pg. 5
Total operating expenses     $1,553,787,000 ($240,900,000 increase over year ended June 30, 2007)
Operating loss                    $1,064,349,000 ($183,084,000 increase over above stated time period)

Pg. 6
Net cash used in operating activities   -$509,687,000

Boston's MBTA is quoted as having 65.5 route miles; Jacksonville 2.5.  This is a factor of 26.2.  With operating expenses of $4,615,917, extrapolating for 65.5 miles results in $120,937,025.

Based solely on these figures, it sounds like a bargain to me.   

[stjr]

Jax, I get your drift.  Fun with numbers.

While it's cute to divide the mileage, I think others would join me in saying the divisor should be the passenger count, not the miles.  In this case, I think our $ky-high-way will live up to its billing splendidly!     [Jax: Approx. $2,647/rider vs. Boston: $2,190/rider.]

P.S.  I wonder if Boston had an extraordinary charge to increase by so much over the prior year.  Check the footnotes for "Management's Discussion".

[JaxNole]

1.  I don't believe it's "cute" to divide the mileage.  I divided by mileage as one way to compare the Skyway/$ky-high-way to the list provided by the Wikipedia link.  Using ridership as you did is another methodology.  Either way, I don't think it's cute because...

2.  The list does not compare similar systems--not in technology, scale, etc....

3.  The First Coast News article you quoted focused on actual loss amounts, which I provided for MBTA.  Its passenger revenue accounts for approximately 28% of total operating expenses, a better percentage than the Skyway.

As for significant changes over FY 2007, MBTA struggles with ballooning expenses, (despite a 14% increase in passenger revenue) such as wages (+9.6%), "other postemployment benefits" (+175%) and depreciation and amortization (+21%).  Over the same time period, nearly $1B of depreciable property assets were added to the balance sheet.

At any rate, the T provides value to the hundreds of thousands of daily riders, many who do not own vehicles.  As difficult as it is to quantify quality of life, owning a car in the city of Boston introduces additional incurred expenses.  In addition to the car payment (if not paid outright) and steep insurance premiums, maintenance costs are high because of road conditions, corrosion from sanding during the snow season, among others.  Parking is scarce and so daily parking rates easily exceed $20.  Then there's a fee to even have a car in some municipalities (I'm talking to you, Brookline).

Overall, Boston provides multiple modes of transit: highway, bus, BRT (Silver Line), subway (T), light rail (above ground T), ferries, commuter rail (Purple Line), AMTRAK (regional and American high-speed acela).  All are efficient compared to the limited modes we have here. 

These modes did not come online at once.  And none operate profitably.  The intangible benefit is mobility for the people in and around Boston.

[stjr]

It looks like the First Quarter, 2009, American Public Transportation Report (APTA) reports that the $ky-high-way's (an AG - Automated Guideway) traffic dropped 9.49% from the first quarter of 2008 (and from 1,700 daily riders in the 4th quarter of 2009) to 1,600 daily riders, an almost 6% drop in just one quarter! These numbers compare to virtually no year over year change on JTA's total bus and trolley riders total and a drop of 1.17% in nationwide mass transit .

This appears to assure the $ky-high-way's rank as one of the least used major city transit systems in the U.S.  Congratulations.

And, Miami's $ky-high-way fell about 7.5% [to 25,700 daily riders] (other Miami transit was unchanged) and Detroit's $ky-high-way fell by 20.4% [to 6,700 daily riders](other Detroit transit was up 4.4%), year over year.

Looks like the mass transit public is voting in droves by NOT riding these systems in ever increasing numbers.  Anyone other than myself wish to explain the disproportionate dissatisfaction with  $ky-high-ways?

By the way, the daily riders in the so called "complete" and "interconnected" systems in Detroit and Miami are both well below the 20+ year old projections for the Jax $ky-high-way's currently completed system.  I don't see any hope for us to achieve sustainable numbers even if the system is expanded as advocated by proponents given the experiences of these much larger cities and and their already more fully developed systems.

Another nail in the $ky-high-way coffin?

See the report at:  http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q1_ridership_APTA.pdf

[thelakelander]

Why single out the skyway?  Didn't a drop in service occur over the last year, with service now ending at 7pm?  The fare was also raised to $0.50. We already know that its screwed up with poor service and transit system integration.  We also know the original estimates were cooked for the proposed larger system and the 2.5 mile system that was built.  You're bringing old news to the table.  My predicition for the rest of the year is a continuation of a drop in ridership numbers, with JTA proposing to eliminate Saturday service.  Short of shutting it down and repaying the government the $184 million it cost to construct it, the only way to turn these numbers around would be better integration and efficiency.

However, take a look at other mass transit systems during the same time period, the numbers are all over the place.  Here are a few:

Heavy Rail

+1.21% - Metrorail (Miami)
-2.15% - BART (San Francisco)
-6.99% - MARC (Baltimore)
-6.10% - MTA Staten Island Railway (New York)

Light Rail/Streetcar

+40.49% - TECO Streetcar (Tampa)
-12.81% - Boston
-7.58% - Kenosha Streetcar (Kenosha)
-2.89% - M-Line Streetcar (Dallas)
-3.04% - Metrorail (Houston)

Commuter Rail

+220.87% - Rail Runner (Albuquerque)
+10.98% - TRE (Dallas/Fort Worth)
-17.71% - Oceanside Sprinter (San Diego)
-9.95% - San Joaquin Reg. Rail (Stockton)
-6.59% - Metra (Chicago)
-6.54% - MTA Long Island Railroad (New York)

Trolley Bus

-20.67% - Silver Line (Boston)
-6.29% - Northern IN Commuter TD (Chesterton)

In the end, while we can point out situations that would cause the skyway's numbers to fall, its hard to tell why Boston's BRT dropped 20%, Miami's Metromover 7.46% or San Diego's Sprinter nearly 18%.  Its also hard to explain Tampa's streetcar shooting up 40% or the Rail Runner going up 220% (although I suspect this is due to the extension of the line to Santa Fe).

My guess, is that the DTs of Miami and Detroit took a huge hit with the fall of the real estate boom.  If there is less people coming into their downtown areas now, its possible that service would drop.  Its also possible there were service cuts or fare changes (for example, Metromover used to run 24/7 for free, which may not be the case now).  Without more information, its hard to see why the numbers range or draw any conclusions that are weighted in facts.

Btw, where are the numbers for the Indianapolis people mover, the Morgantown, WV system and the monorail in Las Vegas?  Also, what's going on in Ottawa?  The bus system (largely BRT) dropped 51% and their DMU rail system is down 47%.

[Ocklawaha]

The "standard" measurements are Passenger Miles per ______. One passenger, one mile, one direction. To evaluate any mass transit system on a level playing field, one could use Passenger Miles per gallon, per hour, day, week, month, or per hour per direction.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Reduction in numbers is pretty easy to explain fellows......no one is taking into the account the economy! You have to be working to pay to ride anything and raising rates just throttles things even more!